Does suppression need a buff
11 Nov 2015, 04:15 AM
#21
Posts: 362
Wouldn't mind seeing pinning become easier to do, thing as it prevents squads from crawling up to an MG and throwing a grenade, which I don't particularly like.
11 Nov 2015, 04:22 AM
#22
Posts: 509
maybe for the mg team. have the gun being operated like a team, by 2 soldiers so if one dies theres another to take his place immediately. that way the mg doesnt get slaughtered straight away and always has somebody firing it. or/and give the mg a shield like at guns so it has some cover?
maybe have suppressed infantry automatically move away from the mg, or whatever is suppressing them? or at least lose direct control of the squad or squads movements, temporarily? that way u can only throw a grenade from the squad is and not be able to crawl closer to throw it.
That double gunner idea I like. By preventing a gunner-snipe it'd make pinning a bigger risk for the attacker. It has an added bonus of being realistic /historic (ammo feeder anyone?)
Otoh itd also make nades more powerful, especially riflenades. Uncertain about that aspect.
Loss of control though, no I don't think the majority will want that. Though it makes some sense to have a temporary loss of control, maybe for 1s or so.
11 Nov 2015, 04:24 AM
#23
Posts: 509
Wouldn't mind seeing pinning become easier to do, thing as it prevents squads from crawling up to an MG and throwing a grenade, which I don't particularly like.
But then we'd see complaints of instapin etc. Elchino is on the money there about reducing nade range while suppressed.
11 Nov 2015, 06:05 AM
#24
Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7
suppression is already extremely punishing imo.
11 Nov 2015, 06:44 AM
#25
Posts: 403
Supression as a mechanic should be reworked.
Units should lose supression quickly if they aren't being fired upon by the source. What I mean is if you smoke a mg42 and your rifles are supressed, they should become unsupressed really quickly since the hmg can't fire at them.
It's really stupid to have units that are crawling when nothing is shooting at them.
For pack/isg it would mean that units would become supressed/pinned for like 1 or 2 seconds and then got back up, this would also apply to CAS AI strafe which could make it less bullpudding.
To compensate units should be pinned way faster by everything.
I think it's incredibly stupid that units can be supressed for ages even though flak or something is already dead. It should be more dynamic.
Units should lose supression quickly if they aren't being fired upon by the source. What I mean is if you smoke a mg42 and your rifles are supressed, they should become unsupressed really quickly since the hmg can't fire at them.
It's really stupid to have units that are crawling when nothing is shooting at them.
For pack/isg it would mean that units would become supressed/pinned for like 1 or 2 seconds and then got back up, this would also apply to CAS AI strafe which could make it less bullpudding.
To compensate units should be pinned way faster by everything.
I think it's incredibly stupid that units can be supressed for ages even though flak or something is already dead. It should be more dynamic.
My place in the ladder is irrelevant as long as I am matched with opponents of the same rank and play all factions (balance at place 1000+ is no different from balance in top 100 if we consider what I said before the brakets) so I don't care about your assertion which is also irrelevant.
11 Nov 2015, 07:23 AM
#26
8 Posts: 2470
i think suppression and pinning are fine, targeted squad wise. i would like to see units become unsuppressed/pinned faster though when not receiving fire.
11 Nov 2015, 07:27 AM
#27
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
What about units that don't use LMGs and don't shred fresh MG's gunner in late game? Should they be punished harder by suppression too?
11 Nov 2015, 10:23 AM
#28
Posts: 170
Suppression reduces dps to 6.25% of the original. Already extremely punishing, you just need to spot for the MGs so that the enemy is suppressed before they even see the MG.
11 Nov 2015, 10:55 AM
#29
Posts: 1930
Perhaps, but removing them isn't really an option at this point. Two factions (ostheer, ukf) are modeled on infantry being better at long range and the lmgs are a critical component of that. A third (okw) has close links to lmgs cause of obers.
not removing the lmg, redesign them. The dps profile on the LMG needs to be revised back into a regular dps profile, not the reverse slope we have now. It just make the infantry too strong. A lmg blob will easily out dps a hmg and be significantly more mobile and durable as well.
It's a complete nightmare fighting lmg42, m1919a6, and bren blob. One of the biggest reason why the rifleman got their terminator buff is to counter the lmg42. The lmg problem is just cascading into other problems.
the maxims, .50cal, and the mg42 are all fine as long as the enemy doesn't get a lmg blob up and running. Unfortunately the wehr and british both basically run on lmg.
11 Nov 2015, 11:05 AM
#30
1 
Posts: 641 | Subs: 1
Giving riflemen smoke grenades was a dumbest idea ever. it totally negates strategic play of flanking. even cons can run into mg, crawl, throw molotov and force mg to reposition...absolutely zero need to flank.
ketetof shudnt b allaud tew tawlk abowt balence hee s biasd
11 Nov 2015, 11:08 AM
#31
Posts: 509
I know. Which is why I say suppression should reduce dmg a bit more
not removing the lmg, redesign them. The dps profile on the LMG needs to be revised back into a regular dps profile, not the reverse slope we have now. It just make the infantry too strong. A lmg blob will easily out dps a hmg and be significantly more mobile and durable as well.
It's a complete nightmare fighting lmg42, m1919a6, and bren blob. One of the biggest reason why the rifleman got their terminator buff is to counter the lmg42. The lmg problem is just cascading into other problems.
the maxims, .50cal, and the mg42 are all fine as long as the enemy doesn't get a lmg blob up and running. Unfortunately the wehr and british both basically run on lmg.
11 Nov 2015, 11:14 AM
#32
Posts: 509
What about units that don't use LMGs and don't shred fresh MG's gunner in late game? Should they be punished harder by suppression too?
No that's not the intent. I foresee events as follows:
Smg infantry: largely unaffected because their long range dmg is pitifully small anyway. No way you can Yolo rush an MG frontally with these guys anyway.
Lmg infantry: get a bigger dmg reduction which makes Yolo frontal rushes less profitable.
Cons, penals, bar rifles an panzer grens will suffer a bit but then again, nobody profitably rushes them headlong into an MG and wins anyway.
I do share your concerns but right now I think the tradeoff should be worth it
11 Nov 2015, 11:22 AM
#33
Posts: 509
Suppression reduces dps to 6.25% of the original. Already extremely punishing, you just need to spot for the MGs so that the enemy is suppressed before they even see the MG.
it's not enough in the late game. Late game in dmg output is just so high that a group of lmgs will wipe out an MG before getting pinned. And it's worse when fresh hmgs face vet upgraded squads. Essentially the infantry-hmg dynamic changes to favourite infantry too much.
You have to remember hmg squads don't get survivability buffs with vet like core infantry do. I'm not suggesting that they become more durable as flanking will get less rewarding. I want frontal rushes into lmgs to get less rewarding and not by buffing hmg dmg output but by making suppression stronger.
11 Nov 2015, 11:22 AM
#34
Posts: 1930
I know. Which is why I say suppression should reduce dmg a bit more
it's not enough in the late game. Late game in dmg output is just so high that a group of lmgs will wipe out an MG before getting pinned. And it's worse when fresh hmgs face vet upgraded squads. Essentially the infantry-hmg dynamic changes to favourite infantry too much.
this is precisely what I meant when I said that the lmg's bad design is cascading into other bad changes. Just change the lmg already instead of trying to change the game around what's clearly a problematic game design.
11 Nov 2015, 11:26 AM
#35
Posts: 509
not removing the lmg, redesign them. The dps profile on the LMG needs to be revised back into a regular dps profile, not the reverse slope we have now. It just make the infantry too strong. A lmg blob will easily out dps a hmg and be significantly more mobile and durable as well.
It's a complete nightmare fighting lmg42, m1919a6, and bren blob. One of the biggest reason why the rifleman got their terminator buff is to counter the lmg42. The lmg problem is just cascading into other problems.
the maxims, .50cal, and the mg42 are all fine as long as the enemy doesn't get a lmg blob up and running. Unfortunately the wehr and british both basically run on lmg.
It used to be like that but it made closing in by shocks etc. Too costly.
11 Nov 2015, 11:31 AM
#36
Posts: 1930
It used to be like that but it made closing in by shocks etc. Too costly.
what it used to be, was that the lmg42 dealt 19 dps at close range. The precise problem was that the lmg42 was far too strong of a weapon at close range, but there was a lot of room for nerf.
just change the lmg42 to deal ~9.0N-~6.0F dps instead of the instead of the ~6.0N-~9.0F we have now. It would still be the weakest short range upgrade but the strongest long range upgrade.
(this is assuming the rifleman and british veterancy got a nerf as well)
11 Nov 2015, 11:35 AM
#37
Posts: 170
it's not enough in the late game. Late game in dmg output is just so high that a group of lmgs will wipe out an MG before getting pinned.
No they won't if you start firing at max range. Then they will have to crawl to it and try to kill it with very low dps.
11 Nov 2015, 11:49 AM
#38
Posts: 210
Suppression is in a good spot as it is. Anymore buffs to it and it's going to be a camp fest of people just trying to mortar or arty the MG's because all their units will be instant pinned the moment they try to do anything.
I think the only reason why people want it buffed is because there are a lot of ways to counter the suppression mechanic. Either by smoke, just running infantry straight up into the MG and throwing a grenade or abilities that just break suppression entirely.
I think the only reason why people want it buffed is because there are a lot of ways to counter the suppression mechanic. Either by smoke, just running infantry straight up into the MG and throwing a grenade or abilities that just break suppression entirely.
11 Nov 2015, 12:00 PM
#39
Posts: 509
what it used to be, was that the lmg42 dealt 19 dps at close range. The precise problem was that the lmg42 was far too strong of a weapon at close range, but there was a lot of room for nerf.
just change the lmg42 to deal ~9.0N-~6.0F dps instead of the instead of the ~6.0N-~9.0F we have now. It would still be the weakest short range upgrade but the strongest long range upgrade.
(this is assuming the rifleman and british veterancy got a nerf as well)
I get what you mean now. That could work too. But all lmgs would need looking at.
11 Nov 2015, 12:02 PM
#40
Posts: 509
Suppression is in a good spot as it is. Anymore buffs to it and it's going to be a camp fest of people just trying to mortar or arty the MG's because all their units will be instant pinned the moment they try to do anything.
(Emphasis mine)
Instapin would happen if units got suppressed faster. Which is not what I meant. I meant that suppression should be slightly stronger but not any faster than its is.
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