CoH2 Day 1 DLC why I think it's "pay to win"
25 Jun 2013, 18:29 PM
#21
Posts: 1620 | Subs: 2
Relic said the DLC wouldn't give anyone an "advantage." They never said it wouldn't influence gameplay. People read that into Relic's comments because they wanted it to be the case.
Signature by Ginnungagap
25 Jun 2013, 18:41 PM
#22
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
So you expect to pay forty-odd quid for six years (plus) of stable, consistent online support with *no* monthly subscriptions or DLC?
See what I say about entitlement issues?
Relic isn't a charity. If, as you say on your video, CoH is your hobby then support it. That means investing some money in it occasionally.
I don't think it really gives an advantage, and even if it gave a slight advantage I wouldn't think it was the end of the world like some people seem to think. But my main problem with this DLC stuff is it is being released on launch? Wut? Even Call of Duty doesn't try to sell you a map pack until 3-4 months after release. I'm not saying we shouldn't have DLC and I don't expect 5 years for only $60, but we shouldn't need to pay $60 and not be given the complete product. This has almost stooped to the level of Tiger Woods series DLC. "Includes X number of courses on disk, but you can only play half that number unless you pay another $5-8 for each additional course"
25 Jun 2013, 18:58 PM
#23
Posts: 25
Oh! There are 21,000 people playing Coh2 on steam today. Coh2 just beats Garry's mod, whatever that is.
25 Jun 2013, 19:04 PM
#24
Posts: 65
Oh! There are 21,000 people playing Coh2 on steam today. Coh2 just beats Garry's mod, whatever that is.
They must all be playing single player because the last automatch I tried had 7 people in it.
25 Jun 2013, 19:14 PM
#25
Posts: 25
They must all be playing single player because the last automatch I tried had 7 people in it.
From these data, I make the assumption that the ratio of casual to competitive players is 3,000 to 1. Well disregarding connectivity, time zones etc.
25 Jun 2013, 19:18 PM
#26
Posts: 1620 | Subs: 2
I think it's slightly better than that, right now 13 people are automatching!
Signature by Ginnungagap
25 Jun 2013, 19:27 PM
#27
Posts: 25
I think it's slightly better than that, right now 13 people are automatching!
Well you know what that means: everyone here who plays automatch is in the 99% percentile of the skill distribution. That makes all of us Coh experts.
25 Jun 2013, 20:32 PM
#28
Posts: 51
on topic:
I appreciate that A_E is trying to make an unbiased analysis even though he owns the collectors edition - what's wrong about critical thinking?
Pay to win or not pay to win has to be proven ingame. If "premium" doctrines offer an advantage over the other doctrines, relic has to balance them accordingly ... if they are OP and don't get balanced (because ppl paid for that exact combination of abilities) the game will become less fun for the less fortunate, literally.
I appreciate that A_E is trying to make an unbiased analysis even though he owns the collectors edition - what's wrong about critical thinking?
Pay to win or not pay to win has to be proven ingame. If "premium" doctrines offer an advantage over the other doctrines, relic has to balance them accordingly ... if they are OP and don't get balanced (because ppl paid for that exact combination of abilities) the game will become less fun for the less fortunate, literally.
25 Jun 2013, 20:49 PM
#29
Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6
Some DLC commanders are good, but only in one way, for example, when you got Conscript Spam Tactics commander you are mainly focused on Conscripts right? you won't have Shock Troops, even Guards so you are vulnerable to Flamer HT's and enemy infantry since you don't have elite infantry
Let's look at for example... Spearhead doctrine, it's not OP at all, it's only good in late when you call-in Tiger, in early stage you got HT mortar that can be used well against enemy support weapons, Panzer Tactician? only vehicles and tanks can use this, it's only good in retreating your vehicles, in early it's not that OP, Recon flight? yea, that's very necessary ability for all players, no doubt about that and Fragmentation bombs comes very late and they need 180 MU and it can be easily dodged, because flares are dropped like 2 seconds before plane is on the field
Commanders would be OP only if they'd have more abilities, like 6 or even 8, but having only 5 isn't that much
Let's look at for example... Spearhead doctrine, it's not OP at all, it's only good in late when you call-in Tiger, in early stage you got HT mortar that can be used well against enemy support weapons, Panzer Tactician? only vehicles and tanks can use this, it's only good in retreating your vehicles, in early it's not that OP, Recon flight? yea, that's very necessary ability for all players, no doubt about that and Fragmentation bombs comes very late and they need 180 MU and it can be easily dodged, because flares are dropped like 2 seconds before plane is on the field
Commanders would be OP only if they'd have more abilities, like 6 or even 8, but having only 5 isn't that much
25 Jun 2013, 20:50 PM
#30
1 
Posts: 78
Its definetly not pay to win atm because all the new commanders totally suck. They mix all the useless abilities from the other ones. And about auto matching: I didn't even complete all the vcoh campaign, nor any cod or whatever, i instantly enter multiplayer to rank up or gain levels. Right now for me there is absolutely no reason to play multiplayer in coh2 since it's called "ranked game" without a ranking FFS!
2500h+ CoH and still unable to play 
25 Jun 2013, 20:58 PM
#31
Posts: 55
But you don't get new abilities with those new commanders, just different combinations of abilities. And it's hardly an advantage when those combinations of abilities are vastly inferior to the combinations of abilities that are accessible to every person who purchased the game.
Terror tactics is best russian doctrine. Even though there are no new abilities ( which sucks by the way). Relic is full of shit saying no pay to win.
25 Jun 2013, 21:00 PM
#32
Posts: 25
If commanders don't offer an advantage, why would anyone bother to buy them? And why would Relic care about balance, if the overwhelming majority of players are single players? The AI doesn't complain about balance. So I guess, this DLC is not an issue from Relic's point of view. This is how they make money, after all.
25 Jun 2013, 21:00 PM
#33
Posts: 642
People shouldn't be surprised at the small number of people automatching.
People want to try out the campaign, and the Theater of War mdoes. A LOT of people didn't play the beta religiously, and are trying to come to terms with the new mechanics with skirmish AI.
vCoH was composed of like 15-20% automatchers. The rest weren't. This won't necessarily change much the second time around.
On Steam Store, last I checked, CoH2 was first at the top sellers list. This is good for us automatchers, too.
People want to try out the campaign, and the Theater of War mdoes. A LOT of people didn't play the beta religiously, and are trying to come to terms with the new mechanics with skirmish AI.
vCoH was composed of like 15-20% automatchers. The rest weren't. This won't necessarily change much the second time around.
On Steam Store, last I checked, CoH2 was first at the top sellers list. This is good for us automatchers, too.
25 Jun 2013, 21:08 PM
#34
Posts: 25
People shouldn't be surprised at the small number of people automatching.
Eh, I am not surprised. And I won't be surprised if the number of people automatching will be even smaller in a year from now, but at least new commanders will keep the metagame fresh!
PS: but we will see who is right: you with 3,000 - 4,000 people automatching (15 - 20% of current number of players (20,000)) or I with < 7. But who knows. Maybe we are both wrong. It just might be a connectivity issue, since the automatch wasn't populated by players in the beta either.
25 Jun 2013, 21:53 PM
#35
1 Posts: 1021 | Subs: 1
the conscript support doctrin IS broken, in a 1v1 barton might be right about missing flameHTcounters, but in a 2v2 or 3v3 or 4v4 this doc is a beast!
“Ha! They're scratching your paint job, Helmut!”
25 Jun 2013, 22:33 PM
#36
Posts: 4
About gamplay changes and the word "advantage" being thrown around: How would you feel if in vcoh wehr t3 wouldve been "premium"? You can allways go t2-t4 and have a viable strat, that some might argue is superior to any t3 strat...
Bullshit. Having more options IS an advantage. If there is even a single game played where having a premium commander is usefull at all it is pay-to-win. So either relic nerfs all the exclusive commanders to make them unusable or they will offer an advantage. there is no in between.
Worst of all we've been lied to. From the beginning when THQ first accidentally used the word "xp boost" people were sceptical and critisized them for it, we've been told over and over again that "premium" content will have no effect on the gameplay and now, at release it turns out all of this was just a lie.
Id have happily payed 60€ instead of 50€ for a game without such bs. I want competetive gameplay. Instead of an observer mode, a good replay system, tournament support, a ladder or even a chat lobby they gave us levels to unlock commanders, colorfull player frames, stupid bulletins and pay-to-win bullshit. Who the hell asked for this?
And there i was hoping for an alternative to sc2.
Bullshit. Having more options IS an advantage. If there is even a single game played where having a premium commander is usefull at all it is pay-to-win. So either relic nerfs all the exclusive commanders to make them unusable or they will offer an advantage. there is no in between.
Worst of all we've been lied to. From the beginning when THQ first accidentally used the word "xp boost" people were sceptical and critisized them for it, we've been told over and over again that "premium" content will have no effect on the gameplay and now, at release it turns out all of this was just a lie.
Id have happily payed 60€ instead of 50€ for a game without such bs. I want competetive gameplay. Instead of an observer mode, a good replay system, tournament support, a ladder or even a chat lobby they gave us levels to unlock commanders, colorfull player frames, stupid bulletins and pay-to-win bullshit. Who the hell asked for this?
And there i was hoping for an alternative to sc2.
25 Jun 2013, 22:44 PM
#37
Posts: 1164
Relic said the DLC wouldn't give anyone an "advantage." They never said it wouldn't influence gameplay. People read that into Relic's comments because they wanted it to be the case.
actually, they said that if you are the better play, you will win regardless.
they didn't say anything about similarly skilled players.
25 Jun 2013, 22:58 PM
#38
Posts: 144
I swear, New commanders doesn't give you the win.
It's true. Play the game. or Watch broadcast of anyone.
of course, some commanders is useful. but almost They are not special.
It's true. Play the game. or Watch broadcast of anyone.
of course, some commanders is useful. but almost They are not special.
25 Jun 2013, 23:07 PM
#39
Posts: 25
just wait. the older the game, the better new commanders will become. of course all of them will affect gameplay, because it's Relic. And you know it.
this is just to habituate you to the concept of DLC. so it feels more naturally later on for you to buy their stuff. it wouldn't surprise me if later on, commanders could call in off-map units not intrinsic to the core game. oh the possibilies are endless.
this is just to habituate you to the concept of DLC. so it feels more naturally later on for you to buy their stuff. it wouldn't surprise me if later on, commanders could call in off-map units not intrinsic to the core game. oh the possibilies are endless.
25 Jun 2013, 23:12 PM
#40
Posts: 604
I don't like day one DLC because it feels like it should be part of the game. After all it is accessible from launch. I understand that day one DLC is just content that was made instead of firing teams or putting them on other projects but it still feels like it should be part of the full price product.
Side note: There is currently a deal at one key reseller site for a key of the first 4 commanders for 3,99€... doesn't seem to go on for long though and those commanders certainly don't seem to be very strong/required.
For other DLC it really depends on the price. I think I will really only be buying single commanders and no skins. I know people who spent a lot of money on LoL skins and while I don't feel the need for skins, they certainly seem to be a great way to get more money for extended support of the game.
However, I really fear that they may feel encouraged to only/mostly produce overpowered commander to earn more money... I hope this fear is misplaced.
Side note: There is currently a deal at one key reseller site for a key of the first 4 commanders for 3,99€... doesn't seem to go on for long though and those commanders certainly don't seem to be very strong/required.
For other DLC it really depends on the price. I think I will really only be buying single commanders and no skins. I know people who spent a lot of money on LoL skins and while I don't feel the need for skins, they certainly seem to be a great way to get more money for extended support of the game.
However, I really fear that they may feel encouraged to only/mostly produce overpowered commander to earn more money... I hope this fear is misplaced.
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