Maxim Spam + SU85 (aka attack move win)

I feel dirty posting this, but I think it's important to spark discussion.

A little background:
I'm about an 80/20 ostheer/soviet player. I have a pretty good win ratio against most builds, with the single exception of maxim spam. I'm 0-6 against Maxims (and about a 70% winner overall). I really think that Maxims are far too strong, and that it ultimately becomes the Soviet's game to lose if they go for it. However, as the age old strategy game maxim goes (see what I did there?), "play what you think is overpowered and see what people do against it).

Since switching to Russians full time, I've won 11 out of 12 games. All but one opponent was at least level 40. Most games were pretty well decided by ten minutes. The worst part is that it didn't even feel difficult. In most of the games I never once felt like I was really in danger of losing. It was comical watching people try to attack- gren spam, PGs, P4 (HAH!), Ostwind, even snipers.


Here's the outline of the build:
-First engi captures
-Second engi builds Support Weapon Kampaneya (I know there's a slight manpower delay here, i tend to build it towards the outskirts of the base to minimize lost time)
-Maxim, Maxim, Maxim, Maxim
-Select "Guards Motor Coordination Tactic"
-Guards x2 with DPS LMG
-Fuel Depot
-Attack move the enemy, cut off their supplies, set up shop and use pioneers and 1-2 mgs to cap
-lay mines EVERYWHERE (there's literally nothing else to get munis with besides DPS)
-Get SU-85
-Finish the game with Rocket Trucks and another SU-85


This hard counters Grenadier or PG spam. No micro necessary- attack move to win.

Snipers are dealt with rather hilariously. Use MGs to suppress infantry that are screening it, then run a full six-man MG squad AT the sniper. If he stops to take a shot, immediately attack him. Your fast deploy speed means it's quite likely you will get a burst of fire off at him, which will usually kill or severely injure his sniper. 120mm mortar later can also be used to kill him with either the massive AOE of barrage or Precise Shot.

Mortars can be killed by your own 120mm, or more commonly overrun by your plethora of MG teams.

No T3 vehicle can defeat the SU-85, especially with Mark Vehicle. Just make sure to keep your SU-85 way back and use it like an AT gun. They do have trouble penetrating Panther armor, but you can get T-34/85s to Ram it if you'really having a lot of trouble.

Flame halftrack is easily the trickiest thing to fight because of your mediocre mid-game anti-tank abilities (just Guards and mines, though Mark Vehicle helps) and the fact that it can quickly jump around the map, attacking your flanking cappers. However, in all but two of the games I was able to kill it with either Guards or mines + Guards. Planting two mines adjacent to each other can help as well.

Triple pio starts make it a lot harder for you to seize the early game decisively, I've noticed.

Thoughts? Counters? I think something weird like double or triple sniper combined with mass pioneers might work.

Full description of the build is here.

I think its too early to say that the Maxim build is OP, I think its a side-effect of the Mortars being over nerfed (I'm talking standard mortars not the doctrinal ones). It is so inaccurate now you can only expect to score 1 hit per barrage, usually getting 2-3 guys.

I do 2-3x conscript + molotov before getting 2 maxims, I have 100% win/loss with that start.

Gives you a little more pressure and 2 maxims are still able to deal with everything.

i tried this strategy today and yes, maxims are op! you can kill a mg42 with ease,even if it is in green cover and you ran into it, were supressed and had no cover. its ridiculous!
@basilone: yeah, that might be one point, but still they set up way too fast!

I like doing this build, but I usually do a few things slightly different.
1) I prefer building directly off the start. You'll float about 140 manpower or such, but once the building is built, cap with engie, and make the mg immediately. Once the mg spawns you'll usually have anough manpower for the second pretty much the moment the first enters the playing area.

2) I haven't actually found a commander I like the best with this strategy yet, though I feel it's useful to go one that has a decent amount of munitions dump. Without the early conscripts, I noticed a huge buildup in munitions from not throwing molotovs and at nades. It's nice to get uses for these.

My other advice is, although It's tempting to buff maxims with bulletins, I would advise against it. Played a 1v1 in which the guy read my strat from the bulletins, and countered me hard with a gren squad, a mortar or two and snipers. I had to switch it up quick, and ultimately took the win, but he pretty much made the mg's worthless.

I think the Maxim is a beast but I think it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to early to say they are OP. There are some holes in the strat

-Flame track
-Regular track transporting guys to flank
-Regular flanking with grens or pgrens
-Mortars
-Doctrine units - Mortar track
-Smoke

I'll be finishing the campaign either today or tomorrow and I'll play a bunch more 1v1s. I think double flame halftrack would be an interesting counter strategy, but you'd have to be so careful not to lose the halftracks.

Tried this myself, and it felt was so easy. Even though the enemy would outflank me, or charge, the six man squad ensured I was still in full controll. Had a flamerhalftrack drive next to my Maxim, and spray it with flames. The maxim could easily hold its ground until reinforcements could be brought up.

Playing the russians I found that spamming Maxims and 120mm was a verry effective tactic, though it didnt really take much skill. Getting a Tank destroyer (forgotten theire name) up behind for AT-support made my lines practicly impenetrable. Hope they do something about this.

funny funny funny , i envolded an strat like this months before we played first time in alpha . Must test this if it really works so well

I've done this a few times too, right now it's rather easy to win doing this, at least people i've met don't have a counter.

It's a little sad that strats like this and the scoutcar+sniper/flamer work so well.

Won 4 of 4 tonight with more Maxims.

I was so bored while attack moving to win that I was watching Sepharim's stream on my laptop simultaneously, and he lost a game to Maxim spam and said after:

"Maxims are so unbalanced right now it's ridiculous. Relic has to get their shit together and figure this out... they literally only need to reduce the crew size."

I'm generally stopping at 3 MGs now and getting a Conscript for capping + merge squad. The fourth MG is really kind of overkill.

funny funny funny , i envolded an strat like this months before we played first time in alpha . Must test this if it really works so well

I remember that xD

Except we thought it would be a good strat because the 6 man crew could fight off flanks, except those extra guys are actually terrible but mortars cant hit them and they rotate waaay too fast.

Managed to lose after a 5 game winning streak. Opponent did it by flanking and exploiting the narrow arc of the maxim + the fact that it takes a few bursts to supress.

I think it was more due to me not playing well rather than any real weakness to the strategy though.

I find it's as much that playing against Maxims with a mortar backing them up is incredibly frustrating as that they're necessarily that OP (also they are really cheap for how little risk they represent/management they require compared to the MG-42). Also that they are a fairly hard counter to grens and other MGs and can just sit in buildings all day long.

I'm OK with them on big maps where I start with Tier 2. On smaller maps they get maddening very quickly.

I never lose to this tactic as the ostheer.I usually abuse the strafing run and get 2 snipers and a flame half track and it shuts it down.

I never lose to this tactic as the ostheer.I usually abuse the strafing run and get 2 snipers and a flame half track and it shuts it down.

I'd like to see a replay of that.

I would like to upload one but I haven't been playing anyone using it lately, I think I might have 1 or 2 but its of people doing it wrong and I stomped them.

I prefer a somewhat more traditional approach that centers around maxims.

(starting engie)
3 conscripts
t2
2 maxims

I eventually rush T3 and pop out a pair of t34s

I prefer a somewhat more traditional approach that centers around maxims.

(starting engie)
3 conscripts
t2
2 maxims

I eventually rush T3 and pop out a pair of t34s

This gives you more capping power early and hides the fact that you're going maxims, but it also is a significant MP investment early as well as a source of bleeding MP. One of the virtues of going mostly Maxims is that your reinforcement costs are low, because either you get the suppress or you get flanked badly enough that it's an obvious instant retreat.

Yeah if you do this you're exposing yourself to counters earlier are you not? Say the germans will have a chance at grabbing enough territory for a flamer HT. You also risk getting your conscripts run off by MG's which puts you behind in capping.

As is your maxim can set up in the face of an MG42 and kill it - even if it's pinned!

My feeling is that this strat is strong because you can force retreats via supression and then set up shop on their fuel/muni points. This is harder to do early if you mostly have conscripts?