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Soviet Defensive Tactics Redesign

26 Oct 2015, 20:16 PM
#1
avatar of F1sh

Posts: 521

As we all know the Soviet Defensive Tactics is a very unbalanced, and by unbalanced I mean it gives early game buffs, but nothing late game. I suggest we fix it. Here are my suggestions:

previous suggestion


EDIT: I updated it a little bit, and to show it uses only abilities that are already in the game, or easily achievable.

CP 0: Soviet Field Defenses - Combat Engineers can build bunkers (upgradable with MG), TM-44 AT mine, and Tank Traps.

- The bunkers are the same ones that defend the Soviet base.
- TM-44 can just be a copy and paste of the Wehrmacht Tellermine.
- The tank traps are the ones already in the commander

CP 1: Forward HQ is now build able in friendly territory

- Same one that's in the Soviet Urban Defense Tactics

CP 5: Conscripts can upgrade to 2 DP-28s for 75 muni.

- Same upgrade that Guards get

CP 9: KV-1 Heavy Tank can be called into the field.

- Same one that's in Soviet Counterattack Tactics

CP 12: IL-2 Sturmovik Attacks - the strafing run one. 180 muni

- Already in many Soviet commanders

ALSO: I think the Sturmovik strafing run should have more penetration and a bit more damage, similar to Wehrmacht's JU-87 Close Air Support ability.
26 Oct 2015, 20:24 PM
#2
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

This sounds like a Soviet Infantry Company.

Frontoviki Tactics?
26 Oct 2015, 20:51 PM
#3
avatar of F1sh

Posts: 521

This sounds like a Soviet Infantry Company.

Frontoviki Tactics?


Maybe replace IL-2 strafe with 2 CP tank traps
27 Oct 2015, 00:05 AM
#4
avatar of ProBro

Posts: 14

I bolded the changed options for you. But Soviets really need a revamp, as do Ostheer and Americans.

CP 1: Combat Engineers can build bunkers, which can be upgraded with a DShK for 60 muni. Bunker is the same one that is in the base territories.

CP 1: Forward HQ is now build able in friendly territory Would be more defensive oriented

CP 2: TM-44 Anti-tank mine. 60 muni, a mine that only explodes by vehicles. Does heavy damage to vehicles and can cause destroyed engines; Tank Traps are build able.
Think like the Soviet version of Riflemen field defenses.

CP 5: Conscripts can upgrade to 2 DP-28s for 75 munitions.


CP 9: KV-1 Can Now be called in. Buff KV1 to Churchill cost and stat wise and allow it to hold the line for the Soviets against Axis assaults, and spearhead counterattacks.

CP 12: Not One Step Back; all enemy units in friendly territory are bombarded with ML20 saturation barrage. Infantry fight with increased tenacity. Friendly units may not retreat while this ability active. 300 munitions. Interesting ability with cool twist; could be balanced by Artillery effectiveness and cost
27 Oct 2015, 10:27 AM
#5
avatar of F1sh

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 00:05 AMProBro
I bolded the changed options for you. But Soviets really need a revamp, as do Ostheer and Americans.

CP 1: Combat Engineers can build bunkers, which can be upgraded with a DShK for 60 muni. Bunker is the same one that is in the base territories.

CP 1: Forward HQ is now build able in friendly territory Would be more defensive oriented

CP 2: TM-44 Anti-tank mine. 60 muni, a mine that only explodes by vehicles. Does heavy damage to vehicles and can cause destroyed engines; Tank Traps are build able.
Think like the Soviet version of Riflemen field defenses.

CP 5: Conscripts can upgrade to 2 DP-28s for 75 munitions.


CP 9: KV-1 Can Now be called in. Buff KV1 to Churchill cost and stat wise and allow it to hold the line for the Soviets against Axis assaults, and spearhead counterattacks.

CP 12: Not One Step Back; all enemy units in friendly territory are bombarded with ML20 saturation barrage. Infantry fight with increased tenacity. Friendly units may not retreat while this ability active. 300 munitions. Interesting ability with cool twist; could be balanced by Artillery effectiveness and cost


This one is definitely better.
27 Oct 2015, 12:14 PM
#6
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

honestly mines, tank traps, bunkers should be all unlocked with a single commander ability. A lot of commanders are just outdated when compared with WFA factions and brits.
27 Oct 2015, 14:50 PM
#7
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

honestly mines, tank traps, bunkers should be all unlocked with a single commander ability. A lot of commanders are just outdated when compared with WFA factions and brits.


Many commanders were outdated even at the Alpha of the game itself :snfPeter:
27 Oct 2015, 15:07 PM
#8
avatar of AngryKitten465

Posts: 473

Permanently Banned
Filthy money grabbing dlc bullshit. Should end this very day! I do not support any more Doctrines. Improve the current ones! I support your efforts however!
27 Oct 2015, 15:36 PM
#9
avatar of Arclyte

Posts: 692

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2015, 12:59 PMArclyte
The ethos of a good defensive oriented commander should not only be about producing a superior defensive position, but also adding something that would force the enemy to attack that defensive position, like artillery of some kind.

For Soviets. Repeal the god awful community commander and replace it with something...anything. Here is my take:



Reinforced Defenses: Lets infantry construct a reinforced sandbag wall with much more hp, with a built-in wall of razor wire on one side to prevent the enemy from using the cover. Takes longer to build than regular sandbags. Also let's CE's build tank traps and bunkers.

Guards Rifle Infantry:
No explanation needed

Heavy Anti-Tank Mines:
Allows CE's to build anti-tank mines triggered by vehicles only, with a high probability of immobilize (Just copy/paste the riegel 43 mine from ostheer)

100mm field gun M1944 (BS-3): Allows for the call-in of a powerful 100mm field gun to the field, a major threat to even the heaviest of armor.

Katyusha BM-31-12 rocket launcher: An up-gunned variant of our beloved/hated BM-13-16 Katyusha, this truck carries 12 300mm rockets instead of the 16 132mm the baseline katy carries.
27 Oct 2015, 16:06 PM
#10
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

many good suggestions here. i think many of the older doctrines need to be revamped, especially Soviet and Ostheer doctrines
27 Oct 2015, 16:42 PM
#11
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647

if they add new models, voices and character to the game, i think they are worth the money.

really like arclyte's idea, but regular soviet mines are awesome enough, no need for overkill, let conscripts gain ability to place regular mines instead of heavy AT mines.

give them su 100 instead of another emplacement, replace that advanced katty with ml-20 and its good.

still, something needs to be done with stuka dive bomb vs fixed artillery pieces.
27 Oct 2015, 21:52 PM
#12
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Reminder that we won't see NEW things added to OLD commanders. You can actually play around with things we already have although.

What we have now:
All 2 CP 45mm AT gun, 120mm, Tank traps, Mines, Dhska

What it should be:

0CP: Defensive package tools - Allows CE to build bunkers, tanks traps and those S-mines. S-mines are now built in blocks of 4 (less micro).
2CP: Combined arms defensive group - 600mp - Calls 1 45mm AT gun, 1 Dhska and 1 120mm mortar
8CP: ML20
9CP: KV1

For a "special" ability i'll rather you choose it from:
-Scorch earth tactics: basically sector artillery
-Hold the line: copycat of Brits ability. Like the idea of disabling momentarily retreat
-Katyusha saturation barrage: can't we use the victory strike as offmaps ?


27 Oct 2015, 22:33 PM
#13
avatar of F1sh

Posts: 521

Reminder that we won't see NEW things added to OLD commanders. You can actually play around with things we already have although.

What we have now:
All 2 CP 45mm AT gun, 120mm, Tank traps, Mines, Dhska

What it should be:

0CP: Defensive package tools - Allows CE to build bunkers, tanks traps and those S-mines. S-mines are now built in blocks of 4 (less micro).
2CP: Combined arms defensive group - 600mp - Calls 1 45mm AT gun, 1 Dhska and 1 120mm mortar
8CP: ML20
9CP: KV1

For a "special" ability i'll rather you choose it from:
-Scorch earth tactics: basically sector artillery
-Hold the line: copycat of Brits ability. Like the idea of disabling momentarily retreat
-Katyusha saturation barrage: can't we use the victory strike as offmaps ?


Well for the TM-44 mine you can just copy and paste the model of the British mines, same way they copied the TM-35 model for the USF M5 mines.
27 Oct 2015, 23:14 PM
#14
avatar of Talore

Posts: 73

I made a similar thread a while ago about revamping many outdated commanders in order to make them more useful. While I like some of these ideas, suggestions that implement existing mechanics rather than necessitating a bunch of resources poured into new models/units/voices/etc. are far more likely to happen. Relic is quite strapped for manpower right now, what with this being an old game now and much of their development team reassigned for their new game.
28 Oct 2015, 02:46 AM
#15
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

Filthy money grabbing dlc bullshit. Should end this very day! I do not support any more Doctrines. Improve the current ones! I support your efforts however!


You remember that this one is free right?


Personally as this was "Community Designed" I would leave it and Ostheer one as they are.

Then when anyone comes along and claims that "Relic should listen more to the Community" we can point to this as what happened when they did and that maybe the professional game designers might be able to do a better job than the amateurs

* By "Community" they usually mean "Me" or if they are feeling expansive "Me and my friends and anyone else who agrees with me"


However if only as an intellectual exercise, here's my thoughts on this issue.

The Defensive Commander suffers from a number of problems:

Everything comes at once, relatively late and is expensive. At 0CP there was a point to getting this stuff out, but at 2CP you either have already had T2 up or you have gone T0-T1 and will have trouble buying all this stuff anyway.

Lack of scaling into late game, there's nothing to keep this relevant

Lack of munitions sink other than mines and demos



Therefore, with as few changes as possible:

CP0 Dishka, M42, Tank Traps

CP2 120mm

CP8 Mark Target


Dishka would get buffed so it has decent anti-vehicle performance, and the M-42 would get camo like Raketen do and maybe better AI capability.


That won't make it a powerhouse, but it would at least give some opening choices and later game viability


I wouldn't put doctrinal armour in a defensive commander because that's not how Soviets used their armour
28 Oct 2015, 07:55 AM
#16
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Still waiting for the day relic decides to spend maybe 2 days going through vanilla army commanders and making them not shit.
28 Oct 2015, 10:00 AM
#17
avatar of F1sh

Posts: 521

Personally as this was "Community Designed" I would leave it and Ostheer one as they are.

If they are designed by the community, why can't it be changed by the community?


CP0 Dishka, M42, Tank Traps
CP2 120mm
CP8 Mark Target

Honestly, it's still very bad compared to other doctrines. Even with your proposed changes, it's still 60% team weapon call ins, a big manpower drain. M-42 still is garbage, 120mm is nowhere as good as it used to be.


I wouldn't put doctrinal armour in a defensive commander because that's not how Soviets used their armour

Well, this game isn't exactly cut out to be realistic? Gameplay > Realism, and KV-1 would serve as a meatshield.
28 Oct 2015, 10:19 AM
#18
avatar of AngryKitten465

Posts: 473

Permanently Banned


You remember that this one is free right?


Personally as this was "Community Designed" I would leave it and Ostheer one as they are.

Then when anyone comes along and claims that "Relic should listen more to the Community" we can point to this as what happened when they did and that maybe the professional game designers might be able to do a better job than the amateurs

* By "Community" they usually mean "Me" or if they are feeling expansive "Me and my friends and anyone else who agrees with me"


However if only as an intellectual exercise, here's my thoughts on this issue.

The Defensive Commander suffers from a number of problems:

Everything comes at once, relatively late and is expensive. At 0CP there was a point to getting this stuff out, but at 2CP you either have already had T2 up or you have gone T0-T1 and will have trouble buying all this stuff anyway.

Lack of scaling into late game, there's nothing to keep this relevant

Lack of munitions sink other than mines and demos



Therefore, with as few changes as possible:

CP0 Dishka, M42, Tank Traps

CP2 120mm

CP8 Mark Target


Dishka would get buffed so it has decent anti-vehicle performance, and the M-42 would get camo like Raketen do and maybe better AI capability.


That won't make it a powerhouse, but it would at least give some opening choices and later game viability


I wouldn't put doctrinal armour in a defensive commander because that's not how Soviets used their armour


I just made a statement :D
28 Oct 2015, 13:36 PM
#19
avatar of ATCF
Donator 33

Posts: 587

But when DSHK arrived at 0 CP everyone said that it was op with its 16dmg, then it was nerfed to 12dmg and now it deals 10dmg and arrives at 2CP´s, atleast the weapon does not get destroyed when the crew is still alive, so it has had some indirect buffs to it, and Ostheer bunkers got nerfed a long time ago, so i dont think that Relic would want to give the Soviets the ability to build MG emplacements
28 Oct 2015, 14:53 PM
#20
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

We have been talking about old Soviet and Wehrmacht commanders for a year now, don't think Relic is interested in revisiting them again. The commanders are more like Yugioh cards from years ago, useless and forgotten.
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