Ostheer Panther/T4 is Overpriced/Underwhelming

IMO Ostheer panther is current underwhelming or overpriced.
(Strictly Ostheer panther, NOT OKW version)
or generally Ostheer T4 compared to T3.

1) Panther
it cost 175 fuel itself and 45 extra for tech, if you rush it ignoring T3

as a dedicated inf tank, which it is not supposed to be, Brummbar should do the job

as a General medium tank, it doesn't kill infantry reliably, only armed with that pintle MG.
For that we have much cheaper Panzer IV and Call in Tiger that do MUCH better (especially after Tiger gun pen buff)

as a dedicated tank destroyer, the gun fires too damn slow, penetration is meh for that RoF. Range is only underwhelming 50. Damage is also same as others: 160. In short, DPS is too low.
For that we also have spammable StuG G, with much better RoF and same Range.For the same fuel cost, you can nearly make 3 StuGs.
Prime example: Churchill. StuG does the job much better.

as frontline unit, the armor is meh now that we have SU76, self spotting SU85, Jackson, Firefly.

Suggestion: Panther needs a cost decrease, or slight buff on its gun.
-- Either increase the range to 60 as other allied TD,
-- or increase RoF so it doesn't look like shit in front of StuG and SU,
-- or do 200 damage like Jackson, since it fires so slowly already.
Right now there isn't much reason to get panther when you can spam StuG, or mix with Panzer IV/Ostwind, or Tiger.

2) Brummbar
it cost 160 fuel itself and 45 extra for tech, if you rush it ignoring T3

as a dedicated inf tank, it SUCKS.
The DPS is simply too unstable. Sometimes it hits and kills half the squad, sometimes it doesn't hit anything at all, this is somewhat dependent on the Geometry and where the projectile lands.
Seems like the pintle MG kills even more than that 150mm gun.
Right now Panzerwerfer is much more reliably than Brummbar, assuming you have no access to T3

as a General medium tank, it lacks mobility.

as a dedicated tank destroyer, which isn't supposed to be. (even though in game description, Relic writes, "150mm gun can smash through everything, even tanks")

as frontline unit, the armor is only 260. now that we have SU76, self spotting SU85, Jackson, Firefly.
The chance of not getting penetrated is negligible.

Suggestion: Brummbar needs its gun performance fixed, or slight buff on its weapon or survivability.
-- Fix the projectile travel velocity like ISU or any other tank so it hits the target.
-- Either increase the range of its gun + slight penetration buff,
-- or Increase RoF
-- or give it health/armor buff

Again there isn't much reason to get Brummbar when you can get Ostwind as dedicated AI
or general medium Panzer IV that can fight tanks, or Tiger.

3) Panzerwerfer: Good Spot

Panther is a terror of the battlefield and has always been, nothing has changed that. Huge, HUGE frontal armor and amazing speed means it will always find a place to be built. Brummbar has amazing AI if you attack ground, and it has a crew stun / deflect dmg mechanic that no other howitzer-type tank has, making it good for supportive AT too.

The way I see it, t4 is a premium where, if you can afford it, you get tanks that are one step above your opponent's.

lower the cost of the building first, before buffing the unit.

remember that the panther is no longer the most expensive non doctrinal unit in the game, the comet is. While there are some changes I would like to see on the comet and panther, the biggest problem currently is the prohibitive cost of wehr t3/4 teching and building.

Panther is a terror of the battlefield and has always been, nothing has changed that. Huge, HUGE frontal armor and amazing speed means it will always find a place to be built. Brummbar has amazing AI if you attack ground, and it has a crew stun / deflect dmg mechanic that no other howitzer-type tank has, making it good for supportive AT too.

The way I see it, t4 is a premium where, if you can afford it, you get tanks that are one step above your opponent's.

Panther is a joke of the battlefield.
Post patch SU76/SU85 does 200 pen, Jackson do 240 with 200 damage, Firefly do 260 pen with 200 dmg + extra rockets damage. And guess what, they ALL have 60 range.
Now you have Churchill that soak up damage like nothing.
Panther's 320 armor is not magical anymore.
Comet is faster in terms of speed.

Brummbar attack ground is one thing, when you click on a target and it doesn't hit is an issue that needs to be fixed.
And the projectile is as slow even if you attack ground.

OKW panther and ost Brumbar could be cheaper fuel wise. I think Ost T4 is in a pretty decent place with the tech changes and Panzerwerfer buff

Firefly do 260 pen with 200 dmg + extra rockets damage. And guess what, they ALL have 60 range.

Oh come on, in what world is the Ost panther worse value than a firefly. Firefly is a joke atm with 10 second reload and non existent turret rotation

Panther is a joke of the battlefield.
Post patch SU76/SU85 does 200 pen, Jackson do 240 with 200 damage, Firefly do 260 pen with 200 dmg

that's their maximum penetration, meaning the target need to be touching their gun.

Building could probably go down in price a considerable amount given the fact the units it deploys, except the PW, cost a considerable amount.

The tech is 100mp and 45fuel, but the buildings a ridiculous 260mp and 75fuel, same as T3, but comes even later and doesn't have many cheap units to deploy except the panzerwerfer.

Doesn't help that the more lightly armoured, but cheaper T3 specialists do the job of all T4 units, but the PW(obvious reasons) better and arrive sooner when you need some sort of armour.

Your suggestions would make Ostheer absurdly OP(even without doctrine) in any game that is not a 1vs1.

Unit is fine, battlephase is fine too, the building itself is grossly overpriced.

A Panther supported by double pak 40 will destroy any allied armor. You just need to be smart with your Panther, Ostheer equipment must be used with great care. This was the way Ostheer was supposed to be played before doctrine dlc ruined that aspect.

As I said, units are fine, battlephase is fine, yet building itself is grossly overpriced. Perhaps this is also a reason why they might seem underperforming, because by the time your Panther arrives, you are fighting a multitude of allied vehicles which already vetted up.

For the love of god, do not buff the Panther xd

If you want to buff brummbar AI, you should remove its AT.

If you want to buff brummbar AI, you should remove its AT.

Is there AT to speak of? lol

Your suggestions would make Ostheer absurdly OP(even without doctrine) in any game that is not a 1vs1.

It's reasonable from a 1v1 2v2 perspective, where fuel is harder to come by. 3v3 4v4? it's always axis favored.
Allies generally has fuel advantage and allied TD comes much earlier.
As ostheer you tech for T3 for armor before you go into T4.
And when you get to T4, you have to pay for absurdly expensive unit which doesn't come with much shock value.

Is there AT to speak of? lol

Stunning tanks is not AT?

Stunning tanks is not AT?

RNG

Is there AT to speak of? lol

http://www.coh2-stats.com/ballistic_weapons/brummbar_150mm_mp

enough to harm the regular medium. it's not dependable by itself but enough to tip the scale in a fight.

Unit is fine, battlephase is fine too, the building itself is grossly overpriced.

A Panther supported by double pak 40 will destroy any allied armor. You just need to be smart with your Panther, Ostheer equipment must be used with great care. This was the way Ostheer was supposed to be played before doctrine dlc ruined that aspect.

As I said, units are fine, battlephase is fine, yet building itself is grossly overpriced. Perhaps this is also a reason why they might seem underperforming, because by the time your Panther arrives, you are fighting a multitude of allied vehicles which already vetted up.

For the love of god, do not buff the Panther xd

The panther may once have been the king of the AT tanks but those glory days are longer over. if the panther and stug where swapped i would gladly tech to tier 4 to get the stugs. These days medium tank destroyers have so much penetration they can easily kill it. increasing its dps is not bad idea.

As for the brumbar increase the fuel to 185 and its range yo 70 making it a mini 152. for AI purposes the ostwind is simply better.

It bugs me that the fuel starved version of the German army can shit out a panther tank first, but that's about it. The units are all good, I just think they could come out faster.

I don't think they need performance buff.

They are not cost effective, they are just too expensive.

T4 is intentionally overpriced so ppl face less panther, they went with that change to reduce 'peoples crying on the forum'

Just don't waste resources on T4 currently its not viable.

Panther itself is fine, despite not having the range or damage of other TDs, it's fast and has huge HP, specially after vet. It should not be able to kite allied TDs.

Brummbar should be 140-150 Fuel, with accuracy buff and damage nerf. Vet1 should be something like vCoH PE's PzIV, immobile but faster reload.

The problem is mostly the price of T4 building, not the units.

IMO the panther and panzerwerfer are both fine as they are.The brumbar sucks. 480MP/160fuel is fine while the churchill costs 500MP/150fuel? lol...

The tech cost + T4 building cost needs to be changed. 360MP/120fuel is a joke.