[AXIS] [All modes] [PIV should be on par with Ez8/t3485]

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 21:13 PMDougieman

Reading this thread encouraged me to make my first post on this forum. It seems that many people are advocating for a performance increase for the Panzer IV. I don't think that this would actually fix the problem. It seems like this would shift the tank burden to UKF (Cromwell),USF (Sherman) and SU (76). Both USF and SU would have to select their corresponding doctrines just to stay competitive with a stock do-it-all Panzer IV. The poor Cromwell would be completely outclassed. This would force Allied players to buy TDs for a stock unit, and that would solve nothing because that solution already exists for Axis.

There are several solutions that do not require throwing this delicate tank balance. 1) Doctrine tanks or other units (cough... flame rifles) are indeed too powerful and require toning down a bit. 2) Maybe a different approach of tackling these two doctrinal tanks: players selecting these doctrines are doing so (in part) because of the specialized tank. Buying a TD might be the best bet. 3) A healthy combination of the 1 and 2. 4) Fix the teching issues so that Axis players can get to the Panther in a timely fashion to combat these two tanks.

The EZ8 might need to cost a bit more fuel if it severely outperforms the Panzer IV.

This is my admittedly (very) limited view on the balance of the Panzer IV. I may just need to play with the tank more to see how it holds up.

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 17:17 PMBurts

I like how your first change would make the PIV ridicilously overperform compared to all other allied tanks, while your second suggestion would make the PIV even less viable than it is now..

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 17:19 PMShanka

the stug stun lock him with the pak stun ability

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 21:35 PMJunaid

Thats very well thought out imo. +1 mate

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 20:10 PMCultist_kun

Also I want to add. Look at Comet. This tank could be considered as "doctrinal" aswell, because you cant have both Churchill and Comet. But for some reason this unit cost you 185 fuel and its WEAKER in AT then Panther.

Comet you 185 fuel. Because its faster, have AI performance, 800 HP and nice penetration, can stand against all medium tanks, but could be damaged by AT guns and TDs, good range.

Panther cost 175 fuel. 800 HP Perfect frontal armor, good mobility, good range, zero AI perfomance, good penetration, weak to TDs.

E8 have 720 HP, mobility, good frontal armor against all medium tanks, good AI, really good penetration (200 penetration at close range), could be damaged by AT guns and TDs, can fight any Heavy tank frontally at close range or if flanking. Cost you 140 fuel

T34\85 have 800 HP, good mobility, good frontal armor against medium tanks (worst then E8 frontal armor, but it compensated by HP), decent penetration and decent AI performance, can fight all heavies if flanking. Cost you around 130 fuel.

PIV have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor without vet, with vet quite decent, decent AI performance, can fight all stock medium tanks, cant fight heavies even if flanking, good mobility, weak against all AT inf and tanks. Cost you 125 fuel.

Sherman have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance, really good AI perfomance, decent mobility, cant fight heavies, weak against AT tanks, less weaker against AT inf.

T34\76 have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance but better then shermans, decent AI, weak to any AT. Cost 90 fuel.

So how is this fair? Even for doctrinal units.

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 21:13 PMDougieman

Reading this thread encouraged me to make my first post on this forum.

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 20:10 PMCultist_kun

PIV have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor without vet, with vet quite decent, decent AI performance, can fight all stock medium tanks, cant fight heavies even if flanking, good mobility, weak against all AT inf and tanks. Cost you 125 fuel.

Sherman have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance, really good AI perfomance, decent mobility, cant fight heavies, weak against AT tanks, less weaker against AT inf.

T34\76 have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance but better then shermans, decent AI, weak to any AT. Cost 90 fuel.

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 23:06 PMCorsin

Im fairly sure sherman AP shells have the same AT pen as the p4. which are both better than the T34/76.

Jump back to quoted post26 Sep 2015, 07:08 AMFiresparks

why are people comparing the pziv to the e8 and t34 85 first of all. The closest counter part to the pziv are the 75mm sherman, cromwell, and t34 76.

the panther is what you should be comparing to the comet, E8, and t34 85. The panzer 4, sherman, cromwell, t34 76 are the regular medium tank. The panther, comet, e8, and t34 85 are the advanced medium.

There's 2 tier of medium tank.

Jump back to quoted post26 Sep 2015, 07:13 AMRMMLz

That's the point, E8 and t34/85 are comparable to panther, yet they are slightly more expensive than PzIV and less expensive than panther. Don't get me wrong, those units are fine, but PzIV is too expensive for its impact.

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 19:44 PMCultist_kun

I don't know about this argument they are "doctrinal" tanks. I dont know how, "doctrinal" tanks connected with "it should cost 140 fuel more but perform like ~155-160 fuel unit". Sure they are doctrinal, but why they should perform like top tech tanks, while costing you almost like stock tanks?

For every PIV soviet\USF player can have T34\85 or E8. Both this tanks would rape PIV. I just want to ask why? Simply because its doctrinal? Why then doctrinal inf more or less on pair with stock inf if they cost you the same\close. So T34\85 and E8 can stay toe-to-toe with panthers (if used right), which cost Axis players almost ~35 fuel more, but PIV which cost ~10 fuel less then T34-85\E8 will have problems with both this tanks.

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 19:57 PMWFA_DoomTornado

Not a bad suggestion. Ez8 @ 14CP/ or cost increased to 180/490 and T34 @11CP/or cost increased to 160/400.

Jump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 20:04 PMWFA_DoomTornado

Yeah forgot about tiger's CP. It should come at the same time.

@Johnny: That is an interesting suggestion, but then the CMD PIV would lose its appeal.


ONTOPIC: Lets' forget about the timings mate. The PIV needs better performance, a buff is on the horizon

Jump back to quoted post26 Sep 2015, 07:19 AMFiresparks

30 mp, 15 fuel, and 2 pop are more then "slightly".

the panzeriv is also the "control group" around which all other tank are balanced around. Don't mess with it. If there's a problem with the e8 and t34 85 mess with them instead.

In fact the Pziv and t34 85 have been almost static for the last year or so. At this point the ost panzer is the gold standard around which all other tanks are compared and balanced against. Don't mess with the control group.

Jump back to quoted post26 Sep 2015, 07:42 AMRMMLz

How did you come up with that control groups thing, and the fact that all tanks are balanced based on PzIV, is if from an official post or something (legit question)? If so, OK. But if not, then why should they change every other unit?

PzIV could use small price nerf or penetration buff. It won't break the whole balance.