[OKW vs SOV] [1vs1] [SOV numerical advantage and doctorines]

Exactly.

Well.

So long the credibility of your observations.

Well.

So far the credibility of your observations.

How did you manage to question the credibility of those images? Which imply the SOV won the game by mere numerical advantage and causing confusion? And the OST player won the game using the same principle?

How did you manage to question the credibility of those images? Which imply the SOV won the game by mere numerical advantage and causing confusion? And the OST player won the game using the same principle?

That is one game, one example.

That Soviet player might have been better, the OKW player could have gotten 5 RNG like squad wipes, or screwed up big time and lost a lot of units by foolish mistakes.

We don't know anything apart form the numerical differences in unitsv on that photo.

That is not questioning the credeibilty of those images, it is questioning the credibilty of one image to justify a claim that is pretty severe.

How did you manage to question the credibility of those images? Which imply the SOV won the game by mere numerical advantage and causing confusion? And the OST player won the game using the same principle?

Why JLI spam? They excel against low count squads or elite infantry with expensive reinforce costs.
Why not pfussies who outscale cons?

Why not StG44 obers who rip them a new one at all ranges?

Why not HMG34 to control them?

Where was OKW players armor? Where was his AT? Pair of shrecks is not AT, but single light armor deterrent.

The screenshot tells nothing more then OKW player being outplayed by a conscript spam supported by conscript spam doctrine.

If you are using playstyle that is completely ineffective against your opponents strat, you're going to lose.

"Those image serve as ingame examples of what numerical advantage means". I'm going to ignore further deliberated attempts at derailing the main points highlighted in the OP.

"Those image serve as ingame examples of what numerical advantage means". I'm going to ignore further deliberated attempts at derailing the main points highlighted in the OP.

Ignoring criticism won't make your case any stronger.

You claim that the numerical advantage the Soviets 'have' are severe enought to justify buffs and nerfs.

So we are more than welcome to critize your believes. If not, why make a thread?

l2p

Why are you so reasonable, people are trying to hate you here, damn it!

"Those image serve as ingame examples of what numerical advantage means". I'm going to ignore further deliberated attempts at derailing the main points highlighted in the OP.

I have read that similar OP response already in another similar whiner fake facts thread. Has a user be banned recently and try a sneaky comeback?

The only think those pictures are showing is the OKW and Ost players made something wrong during those match.

"Those image serve as ingame examples of what numerical advantage means". I'm going to ignore further deliberated attempts at derailing the main points highlighted in the OP.

So more units on field then opponent have means numerical advantage.

Cool.

Whats your point again?

The only think those pictures are showing is the OKW and Ost players made something wrong during those match.

You only play as USF therefore your opinions on balance don't count.

Anyway, thread got derailed by the usual suspects (and a new apprentice?)

Problem: The SOVs can hardcounter and wipe any OKW unit right from the start. The shock frontline is still broken and I'm not sure why it's not banned again during this tournament, Shocks eat up Falls, Sturmpios and obers. Kv8 is like the crocodile while costing a lot less and arriving much earlier. IS2 is also way too hard to take down and JPiv does not work on most 1vs1 maps. Con's mid/long range damage is too high for a 6 man unit. OKW is supposed to rely on a few 'elite' units to counter the masses of spammed inf/vehicles. But what elite unit?! Jagers which are basically a stylish looking version of ostruppen? Falls which die while just walking or looking at shocks? Volks which are equipped with waterguns? Or the puma which dies to smal stuff while being total garbage against inf and medium vehicles while costing more than a t34.


Solutions:

• Accuracy: Make the elite unit more accurate and worth their cost. Such as falls, JLI, fussils. Obers are also too expensive and take a long time to vet up. A non-vet obers loses against penals.
  
• Faster veterancy acheivment: The veterancy requirements are also too high and probably more suitable for hours long 4vs4 rolfstomps. What is the point of 5 levels of veterancy when they barely hit vet 3.
  
• Remove the fuel penalty: Now that the game is moving towards symmetrical balance and SOV/USF got their lategame (cheap t34, %100 penetration buff for su76, m10 durability, cheaper CPT, increased pen for the m36, unkillable vet 3 RM/cons) significantly buffed, I think the fuel penalty is rather unnecessary and crippling and taking away the fun factor from gameplay.
  
• Jagdtiger/KoenigsTiger:These guys are a tad expensive and the latter went under a massive armor nerf without any cost adjustment. Reduce the cost for both, the jagdtiger is not accessible even at 245 fuel.
  
• Shock Frontline:About time you guys remove the most broken doctorine in game. It's amazing how noobs and pros only use this one as it grants cheap free wins. You know all the good stuff in one package. Imagine having an OKW doc which included a call in Konigstiger, the ostwind, HMG42 and falls and CloseThePocket arty.
  

Where was OKW players armor? Where was his AT? Pair of shrecks is not AT, but single light armor deterrent.

In my opinion - that's part of the problem, OKW light armor is expensive, and not 'that' elite - once u lose it u wont get anything soon. Lose your tank and just look how IS2/Church/Croc/KV8/Flame arty decimate your rakketen/volks. Other faction if they loose their tanks they still can get away.

In my opinion - that's part of the problem, OKW light armor is expensive, and not 'that' elite - once u lose it u wont get anything soon. Lose your tank and just look how IS2/Church/Croc/KV8/Flame arty decimate your rakketen/volks. Other faction if they loose their tanks they still can get away.

Puma can counter any light vehicle play the Allies throw at it. I always use the puma since it can also be very effective vs infantry, since it tends to snipe models from time to time.

As for church/croc, when I face a brit before the hotfix hits live, I simply tell him I'm not playing vs the brits with all the bugs and simple leave.

A little buff to the mg34 will be good, everytime i play OKW i feel that the volks got only one purpose that is to blob them to reach the critic mass, i tried to play them by groups of 2 squads (one squad with schrek and the other without anything) but i feel they lack a little bit of AI

http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/199424-coh2-faction-comparison

Working as intended

Though seriously, this sounds like mostly L2P issues. Every faction has hardcounters available and a well microed Kubel or Flak HT shuts down Con Spam hard early on and lets OKW start to get traction. Yes Volks can be hard to use at the early game stage and probably could use some kind of love but they are also cheap as chips and spammable. Should you try to outspam Con Spam? Nope. What should you do? Make good tactical use of sandbags and Strumpio flanking to win engagements and don't send Volks off on their own to go capping. I'm a big fan of the Strum officer in Breakthrough his Acc Aura makes Volks much more effective and his DPS is pretty good too. The ISG is also borderline OP this patch.

Shock Rifle is one of the better doctrines but its not OP. Shock Troopers are expensive and if you kite them between squads and don't let them close distance you can mitigate their damage. Mines and Cancer Grenades also are very effective. Will they win at close range? You bet. If a Soviet player is spamming them then they have serious deficits elsewhere and likely minimal AT, leaving them wide open to Luches Rape. KV8 is better now, but a serious fuel investment in AI and can let you exploit their lessened AT.

OKW elite infantry is mostly in a good place, Falls are a bit squishy for my tastes but they make up for it with their DPS and utility. Use them in cover and don't YOLO rush squads. Obers are overpriced IMO and could use a slight cost reduction... though their reinforcement cost reduction may help there but they are still good with LMG upgrade though. If Obers are losing to Penals you are using them wrong. JLI are very good IMO, you just need to use them at range and supporting other squads to utilize their sniping ability. Jadgpanzer 4 is pretty garbage though lol King Tiger could probably be slightly reduced in cost in light of past nerfs I agree but not much as its still very potent (just no longer mega Krupp Steel god)

The problem with your suggestions is that A) The fuel penalty is part of the core design of OKW and their unit costing (not to mention the 3vs3 and 4vs4 abuse that would result B) Would make OKW elites infantry too good and/or scale too quickly and abuse the Vet 5 system.

tl:dr Yes OKW could use some tweaking regarding unit cost and Volks early game but they aren't nearly as bad vs. Soviets as OP suggests.

I agree with folks saying the MG 34 needs to be looked at. OKW has enough manpower float that an increase of cost would be totally fine if the unit was more useful. No idea why they lowered the reinforcement cost of elite infantry last patch either, manpower drain was never a problem and I would have preferred a tiny (5% even) buff to received accuracy over lowered reinforcement costs.

I disagree with a lot of the rest however. JLI and Fuss are awesome and obers (while expensive) have a place in most matches. Yea they can't 1v2 or handle shocks up close but that is not how you should be playing. If you have problem with con blobs just get a leig, it's very good this patch.

The 5 veterancy system and fuel penalty, as questionable as they are as design choices, are core mechanics and will not be changed. The game is not moving towards symmetrical balance and if they changed that they'd have to re-balance literally every OKW unit, it'd be a balance nightmare.

As a final note, there are way too many doom-and-gloom posts in this thread and forums in general. Some dude suggested increasing KT damage to 400 and you suggested completely removing the fuel penalty ffs. OKW is poorly designed imo but far from being unable to compete. Just look at OCF - folks are picking OKW and having way more success with it than USF or the poor Brits.

Try playing on Sturzdorf vs a USF rifle company riflemen spam start.

Now that is being outnumbered.

Try playing on Sturzdorf vs a USF rifle company riflemen spam start.

Now that is being outnumbered.

And at what point is this considered spam then? 3-4 squads is the standard opening before transitioning into T2 or T3. There is nothing else USF can spend MP on.

As long as you're throwing it as 6 man squads, it won't.

Number of soldier/squad is irrelevant since WFA and UKF...

On topic;. OP is biased as hell.

Number of soldier/squad is irrelevant since WFA and UKF...

You've completely missed the point.