Air Supremacy is just completely OP

If making the enemy spend 325 munitions on your hq that costs a bit of mp and fuel isn't a good deal then I don't know what is.

Inb4 it takes out multiple at once, so does a stuka bomb on my squads in my base. The counterplay is to not clump your hqs so close. Like seriously the guy just spent 325 muni on your hq that has existed for like 20 minutes and gave you a local advantage, what's the problem?

You should be happy he didn't pick the croc commander

Then the cost needs to be lowered as well with the damage if you think that way. The concept that it can one shot wipe tech structures is bad from a gameplay standpoint.

Forcing all the infantry and vehicles away from the tech building and heavily damaging it is a great use for the ability. It allows some counter play as the OKW player is forced to pull out and come back quickly before the allies finish off the base. Abilities that do so much damage with little actual effort besides their cost are terrible for gameplay, that's why everybody hates playaing against CAS and the like. It is not rewarding for the allied player because they din't have to put in any effort besides not spending munitions, and it is frustrating for the OKW player because they can do nothing to protect themselves except for gimping themselves in the rest of the game by building in base.

Are you insane?

I'm already munitions-starved in most games as Brits so when I DO use that 325 munition call-in I am EXPECTING to wipe your army and/or forward base off the map.

Period.

That is its purpose since I have no other options at my disposal other than losing the game.

Maybe you should be complaining about Close Air Support since it costs only 200 munitions, does the same amount of damage, and loiters for an eternity by comparison.

P.S. While you're at it, stop putting your trucks down next to key points in the center of the map and turtling hardcore. Maybe then you won't end up losing everything to a 12CP airstrike call-in.

The ability is super expensive, so it does need to have a reasonable impact to go with that cost. Currently, even as someone who has played alot of British the impact on OKW forward bases is just to severe. Which by the way, is not to be confused with noobs who put all 4 trucks together then rage quit when they all get bombed by 3-4 various arty strikes and die; if you group up your trucks, that is a strict misplay and you had it coming. Now that being said, personally I feel like OKW HQs should get damage resistance to the bombs, say 20%? Keeping in mind that there are multiple bombs dropped so this should leave them at 30-50% hp after the strike.

Now that being said, has anyone here bothered to try any counter play? Do flakk emplacements help shoot down planes? what about Ostwinds? or even SdKfz 251 (aka flakk track)? If any of these get buffs it could help offset the impact. Sometimes you need to select a commander to counter pick other commanders, the allies have had to do it for a long time, shouldn't be any different for axis.

Then the cost needs to be lowered as well with the damage if you think that way. The concept that it can one shot wipe tech structures is bad from a gameplay standpoint.

Forcing all the infantry and vehicles away from the tech building and heavily damaging it is a great use for the ability. It allows some counter play as the OKW player is forced to pull out and come back quickly before the allies finish off the base. Abilities that do so much damage with little actual effort besides their cost are terrible for gameplay, that's why everybody hates playaing against CAS and the like. It is not rewarding for the allied player because they din't have to put in any effort besides not spending munitions, and it is frustrating for the OKW player because they can do nothing to protect themselves except for gimping themselves in the rest of the game by building in base.

Look, if you want to remove 1 click wipe abilites, I am all for it, but don't do it one ability at a time then. Right now relic has shown that it does not want to remove such abilities, so we are forced to have this discussion.

It's literally the most expensive non vehicle commander ability in the game. You better make it worth its cost. Is it too strong? Maybe, but what would you actually do, with a final commander ability ,that doesn't even kill hqs. Likewise, what would you do with a stuka that doesn't decrew howitzers? If you want to play the nerf game, don't be surprised when assault grens take 50 years to kill a conscript squad in red cover, because you couldn't react fast enough to retreat was "bad".

Back to the ability. It has a long delay, shows you exactly the radius where it will fuck your shit up and is expensive like cigarettes in scandinavia.

You can't throw the word counterplay everywhere, because some things should be countered by making the ability not effective before it hit.

Should mines be visible to every unit since they are a counter to tanks?
If I make a kv8, the counterplay was to not make 0 AT units. If I have a pak the counter is to not let your vehicle stand still in it's firing arch.

IF I MAKE A MISTAKE, I SHOULD NOT BLAME "NO COUNTERPLAY". A COUNTER SHOULD BE A COUNTER

Just like people complained about TANK DESTROYERS giving A TIGER a hard time as a justification for making it better vs its counters.

Scott still gets 1 shot by jagd and elefant, noone cares, but god forbid if the kubel dies to 1 at gun shot.

And if the stuka diving bomb is fine, then this ability is fine. Stuka bomb doesn't give any minimap warning, no flares and the only thing that will give you enough time to retreat your shit is to check every squad all the time for that stupid noise, it also doesn't need to be a nuke since allies have nothing comparable to OKW bases. Let's not even count in the fact that most commanders with the stuka bomb have a recon ability too.

The air raid operation is the counter to clumped up building and defensive positions and if you want to talk about 1 click magical buttons, I would say that there exist way worse offenders for that title, than a 325 ammo nuke at 12 cps

Trucks can be rebuilt, and there's nothing stopping you from putting it in your base. The ability is very, very, very expensive and if all it does is kill an OKW truck it's honestly not very good value when you're already 20-25 minutes into the game. From the perspective of the British, it's one of the few things they get that can really punish the enemy for digging in. It forces them to abandon a defensive position and will smash static structures. I wouldn't have included it in the game, but to compensate I would have given the British stronger tools to dislodge camping OKW players. The Sexton is pathetic, base arty is pathetic, etc. Mortar pits are hopeless at the moment due to Leigs. The loss of an 80 fuel truck is the worst case scenario assuming the enemy player notices it coming in and bails out on units, I'd say it's an "ok" trade for 325 munitions. If you lost 2-3 trucks to a bombing strike, that's something you can avoid by spreading your trucks out. The temptation is there to put them all together to support each other, but you absolutely don't "have" to do that. Losing a 40 fuel mech or 40 fuel med truck is legitimately a bad trade for the British player unless they have huge numbers of assets that can capitalize on the loss of a retreat point. But realistically, the OKW player can get Sturms, Volks (shreks), Raketen and (late game) KT even with the loss of tech structures. Sturmtiger or JT if they have the doctrines. I think people are exaggerating how bad it is to lose a building temporarily.

I would make the warning of the strike more visible/notable. I've noticed a lot of players seem to not even notice it's been called down in the heat of battle, and THAT is why the ability is so strong. The perfect 1-2 punch in a team game is the commando ASO as the followup blow to using the Tac Support commander's Artillery Cover ability. As demonstrated here.

From memory, does anybody remember whether or not a V1 killed a british truck in coh1? I honestly don't remember if it did or not.

If you don't retreat every single unit in the large area,it will definitely destroy all of the vehicles,infantry and buildings, it can wipe out all the heaviest armor. I love this playing as brits, because it can kill JT and KingTiger at the same time with only 325munitions. It's too effective for the cost. Just laughing at Ost Railway Artillery and OKW assault artillery...The ost Railway artillery can hit nothing.

Decrease the dmg.

How nice of you to start arguments with insults, really makes the point clear.


I didn't knew the mech hq had a retreat point, maybe you should calm down a bit before you start getting so upset about this

I could also give you reasons how to not get your tech that costs around 200 mp and 40/80 fuel which also gives you severe advantage earlygame ruined by a 325 muni air raid that has a 12 cp unlock and has an aoe, but that would make me actually not be on your side, which automatically makes me retarded.

Because you all literally hamster around trying to justify what is a ridiculous ability.

And please, you could tell that was a typo. Med HQ.

Again, forgetting OKW fuel penalty and the SWS delay.

Again, being retarded is trying to say an ability is balanced by comparing it to a similar ability that doesn't provide counterplay (without considering doctrinal counterpicks) against static artillery pieces. Would it be cool if the stuka and recon run could just blow up Soviet tech buildings in one shot too, providing that they were able to and had a core design around being built OUTSIDE of the base?

I wouldn't care if its damage to OKW trucks was nerfed

Although I've used it a few times on a med truck and it left it with about 15% hp, it wasn't a one shot

I'd like to point out the hypocrisy here though: the same people who want their core OKW buildings to be durable are the same people who wanted core UKF emplacements to be nerfed into the ground

I wouldn't care if its damage to OKW trucks was nerfed

Although I've used it a few times on a med truck and it left it with about 15% hp, it wasn't a one shot

I'd like to point out the hypocrisy here though: the same people who want their core OKW buildings to be durable are the same people who wanted core UKF emplacements to be nerfed into the ground

I'd have it the other way around, make it less likely to smash 200 units when they don't notice the thing being cast, but I think nuking static stuff in the area is fine. Maybe make the radius a bit smaller, and the warning more visible / audible so it didn't quite have as much area of effect overall? Losing a truck is not good, but losing 6 units is the kind of thing that will completely win or lose a game.

Look, if you want to remove 1 click wipe abilites, I am all for it, but don't do it one ability at a time then. Right now relic has shown that it does not want to remove such abilities, so we are forced to have this discussion.

It's literally the most expensive non vehicle commander ability in the game. You better make it worth its cost. Is it too strong? Maybe, but what would you actually do, with a final commander ability ,that doesn't even kill hqs. Likewise, what would you do with a stuka that doesn't decrew howitzers? If you want to play the nerf game, don't be surprised when assault grens take 50 years to kill a conscript squad in red cover, because you couldn't react fast enough to retreat was "bad".

Back to the ability. It has a long delay, shows you exactly the radius where it will fuck your shit up and is expensive like cigarettes in scandinavia.

You can't throw the word counterplay everywhere, because some things should be countered by making the ability not effective before it hit.

Should mines be visible to every unit since they are a counter to tanks?
If I make a kv8, the counterplay was to not make 0 AT units. If I have a pak the counter is to not let your vehicle stand still in it's firing arch.

IF I MAKE A MISTAKE, I SHOULD NOT BLAME "NO COUNTERPLAY". A COUNTER SHOULD BE A COUNTER

Just like people complained about TANK DESTROYERS giving A TIGER a hard time as a justification for making it better vs its counters.

Scott still gets 1 shot by jagd and elefant, noone cares, but god forbid if the kubel dies to 1 at gun shot.

And if the stuka diving bomb is fine, then this ability is fine. Stuka bomb doesn't give any minimap warning, no flares and the only thing that will give you enough time to retreat your shit is to check every squad all the time for that stupid noise, it also doesn't need to be a nuke since allies have nothing comparable to OKW bases. Let's not even count in the fact that most commanders with the stuka bomb have a recon ability too.

The air raid operation is the counter to clumped up building and defensive positions and if you want to talk about 1 click magical buttons, I would say that there exist way worse offenders for that title, than a 325 ammo nuke at 12 cps

Is this a joke? You are seriously comparing blowing up tech structures to walking over mines with infantry? What the fuck are you even talking about in half this post, these are all comparisons that have nothing to do with this.

You admitted right here

Look, if you want to remove 1 click wipe abilites, I am all for it, but don't do it one ability at a time then.

that this ability is a problem, but you don't want to fix it because other problems exist too? What kind of logic is that? At least with a stuka bomb strike you can dodge it if you move your infantry or retreat, you can't retreat a tech building.

that this ability is a problem, but you don't want to fix it because other problems exist too? What kind of logic is that? At least with a stuka bomb strike you can dodge it if you move your infantry or retreat, you can't retreat a tech building.

I don't want to fix it because the faction is garbage as it stands and this ability doesn't win games, compared to fuel guarded by flak hq and forward retreat point granted by the med hq which provide very early advantages that can give you enough leverage to win games. Air raid is not prime tiger ace level broken that can win you the game. Please give me a replay where the air raid just wins a game that should've not been won by the brits.

Is this a joke? You are seriously comparing blowing up tech structures to walking over mines with infantry? What the fuck are you even talking about in half this post, these are all comparisons that have nothing to do with this.

Is this a joke? Are you seriously comparing losing 200mp/40fuel building to losing 325 munis?

What else are we supposed to do? Bash our heads against the Schwere HQ Flak cannon and wall of raketens and shreks guarding them? Do the Brits have any viable indirect fire to do so? Nope.

Like people said before, it can be easily avoided when you see the big red reticule appear and says GET OUT OF THE AREA! If its wiping more than one truck, isn't that kinda your fault if you saw commandos beforehand? Maybe don't clump the trucks up so close together when you do?

At least with a stuka bomb strike you can dodge it if you move your infantry or retreat, you can't retreat a tech building.

You can't retreat a static artillery piece either. I can't retreat bunkers, fighting positions, or flak emplacements I build on the map. I can't retreat a cache. You'll reply that none of these things are tech structures and that's true, but this distinction is not really as important as people are making out. OKW tech structures are at risk of blowing up in the wild, which is not the case with any other faction. The question should rather be about whether the ability is too effective or too cheap, not whether it's too easy. It would be small comfort to know that your flak HQ was blown up by two time on target barrages being cast simultaneously by two players in a team game, which would require only about 1% more effort and 0% more skill than casting Air Supremacy Opreation does.

Does ASO automatically kill trucks? I'm not so sure about this, since I'm pretty sure I've seen trucks survive the ability. I have also seen it instakill trucks, so it's definitely something that happens too. The question of whether it's OP in general is debateable. If the Brit player gets to ASO it will severely punish people Leig spamming behind their Schwer and med truck. They will be forced to uproot and will likely lose their truck. Fair for the price and delay? Not sure. In a 1v1 context I don't think it's unbalanced, although I've already commented that it has too much synergy in team games when it can be combined with other abilities too. I don't think it should be touched in the next patch though, because various imbalances are being masked by other imbalances in the complex, interlocking series of horseshit that is the current state of coh2 balance. Brits are definitely not overperforming in the meta right now overall.

Most of the time it kills a full health truck, but if the ability is placed bad, it will probably survive survive. Most of the time it will kill 1-2 trucks if they are too close together. But this "too close" is still quite a lot space between them. Well, at least enough space that normal offmaps usually won´t damage 2 of them heavily

What about this: Once destroyed an OKW truck takes only half the resources to be redeployed. By this the one click no skill ability wouldn't be as punishing as it is? This would allow okw players also to come back in game easier.

One of the few ways allies can make a comeback in team games is to slam OKW trucks with priests

If you start reducing their cost, Allied late game will be even worse

No, emperor is right an ability no matter how expansive it is should not beable to one hit okw trucks, and putting it in your base solves nothing

I have been saying this from decades related to that bomber in Tank hunters soviet doctrine that drops hundreds of tiny at bombs. That "carpet bombing" can ALSO ERASE AN OKW TRUCK but no one cared about what I said.

So nothing new on the western front, again allieds have opie op shitty abilities.

Risk vs reward of forward placement, you can't use it on base sectors.

Brains vs. trolling, I think in your case we know who won.

I seriously do question your common sence kubelacer. I never said that the ability has to be nerfed to the ground, but to get your tech structure wiped (and mostly it's the flak emplacement because of it's area denial arc) leavee in thus a weak position that the ability let me not have any counterplay to tanks and stuff.

I seriously do question your common sence kubelacer. I never said that the ability has to be nerfed to the ground

I don't understand anything after this

If you make it not able kill hqs it's basically nerfed to the ground, who would even save 325 muni for a delayed airstrike that doesn't do enough damage to kill a hq? Wow it kills everything in a radius, but if we take into account that your opponent has half of a brain, he would move everything he could outside before it even hit.

The more problematic ability is the vanguard air support, since it does a shitton of damage on the first strafe and then just dies to any AA, but it doesn't kill okw trucks so I guess that ability is perfectly balanced