Soviets since the last patch

That wouldnt change anything, because they would still get runoff by anything and everything.

Their MP40s are retarded, even though they have to close in to use em.

* shakes head *

Just saw the new 'balance' patch which nerfs the flammenwerfer H/T. The most potent non-armoured breakthrough unit. OTOH it buffs some more Soviet ones.

Are Relic playing the same game as us?

* shakes head *

Let's play the game

Name the German unit that hasn't been nerfed.

Oh please, stop defending the flame halftrack it was utterly retarded in it's state last patch.

Also why should PPHS upgrade for Conscripts cost more? It's only 2 SMG's afaik, not 6.

Lastly why the hell do flamers insta blow up on contact with single bullets, it's not a good return on 60 munitions.

Little known fact:

M5 can also carry flamers, and has 1.5x the front armor and 4x the rear armor. For. the. same. price. as. HT.

The M5 is a T4 unit, no? Why are you even comparing the two. At that point in the game no one gives a rat's ass about a flamer clown car.

^ You have a point but Soviets dont's have 'Tiers' do they?

You can go special rifles to M5 fairly easily. In fact, SU76 / M5 AA gun spam is pretty viable.

Why are you even comparing the two.

has 1.5x the front armor and 4x the rear armor. For. the. same. price. as. HT.

Are you ignoring the additional 90 fuel required by the Soviets out of choice or ignorance?

The Flamenwurfer patch was a bit much...It's pretty useless now. Most of the good Soviet players just move from one OP unit to another. In fact the FLamenwurfer was pretty much the only thing letting average German players get to Tier 3.

Ie., I played Gneisnau and whoever his partner is...Gneis will do 4 clown cars with sniper/sniper/flamer/guards if you let him. I lost the first game to this because I wasn't expecting THAT many, but the second time it was much better.

Basically now the metagame will be: make 1 SC, trick opponent into thinking you're making more and thus pumping otherwise useless armored cars, and switch to tanks.

So they switch to the next OP unit, the call-in mortar which can hit the strat point outside your base on Moscow Outskirts if sitting just outside their base. Teammate tried a flamenwurfer, totally failed against the other guys PPSH spam, as the damage is too reduced to be useful. Ostwind helped a bit, vet 3 stug killed lots of T-84s.

We did get to tier 4 but a combination of ramming and constant arty from the two super mortars (I killed one at least) meant we had no chance...It's all still pretty retarded. I could have gone for the German arty, but frankly it's 600 MP I won't have to beat off T-34s with, it's just not viable.

It just seems to me Ostheer is too limited. It can only react to what the Soviets do, not force reactions due to cheaper teching and availability of some pretty OP Sov units as German commanders aren't useful till very, very late game and our one and only OP unit has been nerfed to oblivion.

It looks like for now they try to fix one kind of unit all at once. Tanks in the patch before this, artillery in this one... why they chose to "fix" the flamer HT but not any of the complete BS strategies Soviets can pull is beyond me.

Just played the Meatgrinder on 3 v 3.

I'm not bothering with MP anymore until it's fixed. Huge support weapon teams that can overlap fire, armoured car 'counters' made of cardboard, SU85s that can fire across half the map and SU76s with *better* armour than before. My armour, like the precious PIV it took all my resources to muster, gets an instant engine crit from a fucking *script* squad with AT grenades, then gets eviscerated by AT (if it had survived I guess a cheap-as-chips T34 would have crippled it anyway).

Meanwhile giant Sov doctrine-specific mortars provide off-map arty style dominance... my commander gave me G43s and the interrogate ability. LOL.

The bottom line is that every soviet unit has utility. They overlap beautifully into a combined arms typhoon. It's like the Wehr were designed as mooks to be harvested. PAK is rubbish, the MG setting up as it flees buildings bug is a fucking disgrace and the stuG is now like an undergunned puma but not as fast.

Rant over, but seriously I don't mind getting pwned by better players but this is just getting dull. Very average players camping with support weapon spam then zerg-rushing you with cheap armour.

* Sigh *

Am waiting for 'd00d learn how to play' BS, but suspect the lack of it lends some credence to my argument.

Not meaning to sound trite but good 3v3 balance has never been a thing in any (asymmetric) game ever, really. I've found the %-balance of Ostheer and Soviets is fluctuating more than it used to.

SU-76s have just had their barrage damage reduced by a third and their barrage reload time increased by a third. StuGs should be better against infantry now - I've seen one take out an SU-85 since the patch. 120 muni shreks are phenomenally decent AT, especially if they get the drop on a vehicle.

In 1v1 at admittedly not a tremendously good level (mostly playing Ostheer), I'm finding Ostheer both more flexible and more engaging after the patch (vehicles which aren't a stug are more viable as a first choice) and it's the first time in the Beta I've seen P-IVs and Ostwinds fill the roles they should.

Clown car rush in 1v1 has not been an enormous problem for me, though it seems to be beating the scripts in popularity right now. Maybe if I was against someone with much more solid micro, it would be, but even then you can use LOS to faust the bugger.

@Nullist, yes, the M5 can also carry flamers. But that's for an extra 240mp per combat engi squad and a ton of fuel and MP for the building, and one flamer will fire half as much as the flammenwerfer *and* the units inside the M5 can suffer casualties. Not even seen people TRY that so far.

Much as pios have to run from everyone - at 200mp they're the cheapest infantry/capping unit in the game, they build really quickly, can be upgraded to flamers at which point they're pretty useful, have the best AT mines, repair well (and again, more cost-efficient to get 3 pios than 3 combat engineers if they're mostly repairing tanks). Boosting their combat performance at close range might help the early game be a bit more engaging but over the game as a whole they're pretty fair for the cost.

SU-76s have just had their barrage damage reduced by a third and their barrage reload time increased by a third. StuGs should be better against infantry now - I've seen one take out an SU-85 since the patch. 120 muni shreks are phenomenally decent AT, especially if they get the drop on a vehicle.

In 1v1 at admittedly not a tremendously good level (mostly playing Ostheer), I'm finding Ostheer both more flexible and more engaging after the patch (vehicles which aren't a stug are more viable as a first choice) and it's the first time in the Beta I've seen P-IVs and Ostwinds fill the roles they should.

Clown car rush in 1v1 has not been an enormous problem for me, though it seems to be beating the scripts in popularity right now. Maybe if I was against someone with much more solid micro, it would be, but even then you can use LOS to faust the bugger.

Lets attack these one by one.

1) SU-76 barrage is pretty much gone. This is good. Stug's, however, suck now. They are not as good as a PIV against infantry, and they royally suck against tanks, particularly because it is slow as hell. It should have had a cost increase, not a statistical nerf. Shrecks are NOT worth it, it takes 120 munis form an already starving army, and the soviets can get insane anti personnel units before you can get any shreks out. Drop a shrek (since they are doubles, this is very likely), and you risk giving the most potent infantry in the game AT capabilities.

2)Ostwinds are too expensive now, although admittedly, now they can hit something. The only reason why Stugs arent your first choice anymore is because, as stated, they arent as useful. I don't want my stug to kill infantry. I can get an ostwind for that.

3)Scout cars can be countered, but you have to be expecting it. In 1v1, it is not a big problem because there is a fuel sacrifice for it. However, the scout car as a support unit is supperior, in every respect that matters, to the armored car. It kills faster without troops in it. It can house snipers, conscripts or flamers. It can cap with any troops inside. For a cheaper cost.

Welcome to the Eastern Front, gentlemen. Now I understand the meaning of the achievement called "Delaying the Inevitable".

Dont have a problem with most of this. Besides shreks being so expensive and the fact that I have never been able to effectively destroy a soviet tank with it.. I agree with that part.

What I do care about is the usefulness of the PAK and the KV-8. Did they buff the pak and nerf the kv-8 because both were ridiculous... one weak the other comically strong.

Lets attack these one by one.

1) SU-76 barrage is pretty much gone. This is good. Stug's, however, suck now. They are not as good as a PIV against infantry, and they royally suck against tanks, particularly because it is slow as hell. It should have had a cost increase, not a statistical nerf. Shrecks are NOT worth it, it takes 120 munis form an already starving army, and the soviets can get insane anti personnel units before you can get any shreks out. Drop a shrek (since they are doubles, this is very likely), and you risk giving the most potent infantry in the game AT capabilities.

2)Ostwinds are too expensive now, although admittedly, now they can hit something. The only reason why Stugs arent your first choice anymore is because, as stated, they arent as useful. I don't want my stug to kill infantry. I can get an ostwind for that.

3)Scout cars can be countered, but you have to be expecting it. In 1v1, it is not a big problem because there is a fuel sacrifice for it. However, the scout car as a support unit is supperior, in every respect that matters, to the armored car. It kills faster without troops in it. It can house snipers, conscripts or flamers. It can cap with any troops inside. For a cheaper cost.

Welcome to the Eastern Front, gentlemen. Now I understand the meaning of the achievement called "Delaying the Inevitable".

1. Not played loads with the StuG since the patch because I'm mostly running up against heavily infantry based soviets but when I've used it supported it's coped with much more expensive Russian tanks, it's dirt cheap in terms of manpower and T-34s have become more fuel-expensive (there's a 40mp disparity, the Stug has *way* better penetration). Obviously it's not as good as the more expensive/versatile P-IV vs. infantry but then it never has been. Not that Shrek drops aren't maybe a problem but guard PTRS and lmg drops are much more common.

2. Well, it used to be I'd have to get a StuG as my first tier 3 unit whatever the mix of the enemy's infantry and tanks because P-IVs were way more expensive and pretty lousy vs. armour, and Ostwinds used to just not do much damage. Both of those tanks are now in a decent place. Which means StuGs are now your AT/cheap option, Pz-IV's your flexible one and Ostwinds your infantry maulers. Which is what they're meant to be, really.

3. Yeah, in 2v2 and above I've no idea if the scout car is balanced. On 1v1 however, a really early flamecar will cripple the start of Soviet early game. If it comes out after the usual 3-scripts or whatever it's not that big a problem. The Ostheer armoured car could arguably use a small dps buff and an upgun cost decrease but it's quite useful for dealing with back-capping or upgunned at taking out scout cars, SU-76s, observation posts etc. etc. As noted elsewhere, while the German scout car is pretty much en route to whatever other techs you do, the Soviet one is basically deciding not to have weapons teams or ZiS guns without a costly back-tech.

I get that the Scout Car hasn't been nerfed (I never liked the Werfer, though, glad that's been mooted a bit) but other than that (I honestly don't see how big a deal the car itself is... maybe reduce accuracy from inside it a bit more or up the fuel by 5 or something...) I don't see what's so pro-Soviet about the patch. Yeah, StuGs aren't monsters any more, but they're also 120 mp cheaper and the other T-3 tanks are SO much better at doing their roles... i.e. barely more expensive than a T-34.

Disagree, ppsh is a decent DPS increase, especially for only 20 muni. Do some tests close range and come back and talk to me.

I went HTD/PPSH in the last 15 or so games I played and payed closer attention. Sometimes they would take a burst and drop 2-3 guys which must have been lucky crits because most of the time it would take several seconds to get a kill. They did more damage than what I was expecting per shot but I realized they would just take 3-4 shot bursts, take a big pause then fire another burst. If they sustained fire for longer like the MP44 they would probably do about the same damage, they just don't shoot very much.

Agree with basilone, the PPSH is a nice upgrade but does not give them the same DPS as Pgrens, i reckon the only reason people think they are better than Pgrens is the fact they HtD and get a huuge survivability boost

Lets not confuse DPS and dmg.
Many stats involved here.