Blobbing is back

The reason why this Rifle change has a huge impact is because the vast majority of OKW and Ost units use Kar98k's.

this is just blatantly false. in ostheer the only units that use kar98ks are grens, stormtroopers, and ostruppen. two of which are as you know doctrinal. in the case of grens, the kar98s arent even their main source of dps, the lmg is.

in the okw roster, volks, obers, jaegers and pfusiliers use kar98ks, but at the same time they all have anti-infantry upgrades or options. volks have the new incind grenade which works great against infantry, jaegers are more of a support unit rather than frontline infantry, obers have two of the best anti-infantry upgrades in addition to bundled grenades and damaging smoke, and fusiliers have 6 men in addition to a g43 upgrade.

Dude we didn't lose the game, did you even watch the replay

This also doesn't address any of my other points about Riflemen having vet that's more powerful than units with smaller model counts that cost much more per individual model. You said in another thread IS pay for their good vet in cost, but here you seem to be saying the opposite?

No 5 man squad that costs less per model than many 4 man squads should not have superior received accuracy to those 4 man squads

Like, this has nothing to do with "I played a game, I lost tearstearstears", this is a legitimate problem you are dismissing out of hand for unknown reasons. Do you have some sort of argument for why Rifles should cost 280 MP and have superior scaling to more expensive units as well as retaining excellent versatility?

Effective Health Against Small Arms = Cumulative Health of Unit/Received Accuracy Unit or Chance to Bounce Shots with Armor

Vet 3 Grens have 457 effective health (4*80)/.7007

Vet 3 Rifles have 714 effective health (5*80)/.56

Vet 3 Fallsch have 581 effective health (4*80)/.55

Vet 5 Sturms have 627 effective health (4*80)/.51

and so on and so forth, can you see what the issue is here or do I need to make it even more explicit for you?

I never said that the rifles are fine, what I said was that you can't use a replay like that to justify your opinion.

Rifles NEED to be great, because they are USFs ONLY infantry unit. They were terrible before, and they are probably too strong this patch, but they definitely need to be at the level of elite infantry when they hit vet3 with 2x BARs, because you are investing a lot more into them than any other baseline infantry squad (with the exception of Brits). Recieved accuracy is the best way to represent this, because it doesn't increase their long range DPS (making them blob-able) and because it doesn't effect them vs. explosives (bleed).

But anyways, you are derailing this thread. The point of this thread was to talk about blobbing.

Tanks still work great against rifles, as do mgs. The point of this thread was to talk about blobs, and that is an issue that does not exist, since blobbing is just as effective now as it was last patch.

MG42 doesn't pin the whole blob?

They smoked and flanked

Dude we didn't lose the game, did you even watch the replay

This also doesn't address any of my other points about Riflemen having vet that's more powerful than units with smaller model counts that cost much more per individual model. You said in another thread IS pay for their good vet in cost, but here you seem to be saying the opposite?

No 5 man squad that costs less per model than many 4 man squads should not have superior received accuracy to those 4 man squads

Like, this has nothing to do with "I played a game, I lost tearstearstears", this is a legitimate problem you are dismissing out of hand for unknown reasons. Do you have some sort of argument for why Rifles should cost 280 MP and have superior scaling to more expensive units as well as retaining excellent versatility?

Effective Health Against Small Arms = Cumulative Health of Unit/Received Accuracy Unit or Chance to Bounce Shots with Armor

Vet 3 Grens have 457 effective health (4*80)/.7007

Vet 3 Rifles have 714 effective health (5*80)/.56

Vet 3 Fallsch have 581 effective health (4*80)/.55

Vet 5 Sturms have 627 effective health (4*80)/.51

and so on and so forth, can you see what the issue is here or do I need to make it even more explicit for you?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe your grenadier numbers are incorrect. They have .646 received accuracy at vet3. Maybe you forgot that they start with .91?

I never said that the rifles are fine, what I said was that you can't use a replay like that to justify your opinion.

Rifles NEED to be great, because they are USFs ONLY infantry unit. They were terrible before, and they are probably too strong this patch, but they definitely need to be at the level of elite infantry when they hit vet3 with 2x BARs, because you are investing a lot more into them than any other baseline infantry squad (with the exception of Brits).

But anyways, you are derailing this thread. The point of this thread was to talk about blobbing.

Tanks still work great against rifles, as do mgs. The point of this thread was to talk about blobs, and that is an issue that does not exist, since blobbing is just as effective now as it was last patch.

Also, panzerwerfers are a lot stronger now. They will punish rifle blobs pretty hard. Not to mention LeIG being really damn good with the changes they made to it's suppresion so that it's more consistent. I had a mortar team get pinned in one shot from the LeIG.

Rifles have been fixed, not over buffed. Previously, they were essentially a liability in the late game since they'd get shredded to piece at the outset of any engagement with well-vetted Grenadiers and Obers armed with light machine guns.

Alex's argument that they're too strong for a 5 man squad is silly given how terrible their late game performance was prior to this patch combined with the absurd reinforcement cost.

The meta will adapt, and I'm sure certain Axis units will see some buffs in the next patch to compensate a bit, but as far as I'm concerned, with their being one of the most expensive core infantry unitw in the game and the ONLY non-doc infantry the USF have, their performance is where it always should have been. Veterancy 3 Riflemen are finally good - even great.

It's a celebration, bitches.

this is just blatantly false. in ostheer the only units that use kar98ks are grens, stormtroopers, and ostruppen. two of which are as you know doctrinal. in the case of grens, the kar98s arent even their main source of dps, the lmg is.

Close range when their LMG's reduce in effectiveness the Gren's Kar98's will become a major factor in relation to the game. And Grens are Ostheer's mainstay infantry, the fact they don't use other infantry is kind of an issue in on to itself but that's a battle for another day.

in the okw roster, volks, obers, jaegers and pfusiliers use kar98ks, but at the same time they all have anti-infantry upgrades or options. volks have the new incind grenade which works great against infantry, jaegers are more of a support unit rather than frontline infantry, obers have two of the best anti-infantry upgrades in addition to bundled grenades and damaging smoke, and fusiliers have 6 men in addition to a g43 upgrade.

But your still discounting that fact that a drop off in Kar98k effectiveness DOES represent in a drop off in performance. Yes these infantry come with upgrades you always get but that doesn't change the fact you will still be fighting at a disadvantage with lower Rec Acc and lower model squads later into the game.

I think there is a disconnect here, I'm not claiming this is the end times, but that this change is just aggressively heavy handed and is having unintended consequences. It also represents a lack of consistency because aren't lower model squads supposed to have higher recieved accuracy than higher model squads?

I never said that the rifles are fine, what I said was that you can't use a replay like that to justify your opinion.

You didn't watch the replay, so

Rifles NEED to be great, because they are USFs ONLY infantry unit. They were terrible before,

You are exaggerating really really hard here. And if USF need more diversity in inf why no rework RE's or add some non-doc elites or more commanders? Why just encourage blobbing like this?

but they definitely need to be at the level of elite infantry when they hit vet3 with 2x BARs, because you are investing a lot more into them than any other baseline infantry squad (with the exception of Brits).

I would say 440 MP represents a huge investment to, but for some reason the logic here doesn't follow. Why are Riflemen (280 MP unit at 5 men) receiving superior scaling/vet than units that cost more than they do and are in factions that rely much more heavily on high veterancy to stay in the game.

It's worth thinking about; if OKW is supposed to make up for their handicaps with vet then whats the point if the enemy can still beat you out on Vet?

But anyways, you are derailing this thread. The point of this thread was to talk about blobbing.

Tanks still work great against rifles, as do mgs. The point of this thread was to talk about blobs, and that is an issue that does not exist, since blobbing is just as effective now as it was last patch.

Well, I mean Rifle didn't have silly good received accuracy last patch, neither did cons. And by the way AoE suppression works based on accuracy meaning that shooting at harder to hit units nets you less AoE suppression

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe your grenadier numbers are incorrect. They have .646 received accuracy at vet3. Maybe you forgot that they start with .91?

.91*.77=0.7007

[OT] I just.. damn ..

I'm speechless the amount of time people have to discuss at forums. [/OT]

.91*.77=0.7007

Hi Alezaxzarnzer your assistance is needed in this thread: http://www.coh2.org/topic/40608/volk-throw-their-incendiary-grenade-too-quickly

Close range when their LMG's reduce in effectiveness the Gren's Kar98's will become a major factor in relation to the game. And Grens are Ostheer's mainstay infantry, the fact they don't use other infantry is kind of an issue in on to itself but that's a battle for another day.

except panzergrenadiers are a lot cheaper to maintain now, and pioneer flamers are exceptionally deadly against units in cover. while grens maybe the only real line infantry, they have a wide variety of units to support them. lets not also forget that the mg42 is still really strong and you should try to play around the mg42 to help you win against superior number of troops.

What do you expect for? Rifles the only basic infantry that Murica have. While there are no new doctrines with new infantry or new adds for USF core base, you will face with rifles or sometimes rifles with paras. So this is not a problem with rifles, it's problem with diversity core units.

except panzergrenadiers are a lot cheaper to maintain now, and pioneer flamers are exceptionally deadly against units in cover. while grens maybe the only real line infantry, they have a wide variety of units to support them. lets not also forget that the mg42 is still really strong and you should try to play around the mg42 to help you win against superior number of troops.

Well, I agree. My point was just that this has unintended consequences not that USF is literally unbeatable or w/e. (Although my wording earlier could have been better, the very replay I posted ITT has us winning).

Close range when their LMG's reduce in effectiveness the Gren's Kar98's will become a major factor in relation to the game. And Grens are Ostheer's mainstay infantry, the fact they don't use other infantry is kind of an issue in on to itself but that's a battle for another day.

You have access to panzergrenadiers (with cheaper reinforce now) to punish squads closing on your long ranged units. USE THEM, they don't suck.

You didn't watch the replay, so

I did watch. I merely stopped when your opponent dropped, since AI doesn't blob.

You are exaggerating really really hard here. And if USF need more diversity in inf why no rework RE's or add some non-doc elites or more commanders? Why just encourage blobbing like this?

Because 1) Why would RE do better lategame than rifles, and because 2) Relic. Also, commander ELITE INF is not how you fix an army. Just accept the fact that some allied factions are designed differently than Axis factions, and thus need well scaling baseline infantry. ITS NOT BLOBBING, blobbing is countered by mgs, ostwinds, tanks, mines, panzerwerers, etc.

I would say 440 MP represents a huge investment to, but for some reason the logic here doesn't follow. Why are Riflemen (280 MP unit at 5 men) receiving superior scaling/vet than units that cost more than they do and are in factions that rely much more heavily on high veterancy to stay in the game.

Really? Falls aren't 440mp. You are paying an extra cost to deploy them from buildings. They cost and perform as 360mp, and should lose to vet 3 280mp infantry with 120mu invested.


So please, tell me how this vet 3 has made USF blob so OP that ostwinds, mgs, etc., no longer work.

Well, personally i would have used some received acc on Vet3 of around ~15-20%, 25% is always a bit in the "major change" direction.
But let's be real here: does it make that much of a difference between ~35-40%, or 45%? Nope.
They needed better scaling, they're the (quite pricy) backbone of the USF.

Those few percent barely make any difference, and by the time they actually hit Vet3 you should have superior combined arms anyways. So their bonus works exactly as intended: more survivability and less bleed late game.




"lass die Kirche im Dorf"
(keep the church in the village - don't exaggerate so much about peanuts)


P.S.: seriously, those Vet3 Rifles won't magically appear.
P.P.S.: i'd still say though it should be lowered a tiny bit.

You have access to panzergrenadiers (with cheaper reinforce now) to punish squads closing on your long ranged units. USE THEM, they don't suck.

It's almost like I did this in the replay you didn't watch.

I did watch. I merely stopped when your opponent dropped, since AI doesn't blob.

So you stopped watching, but you claimed earlier we lost because of poor play? I don't even know anymore.

Because 1) Why would RE do better lategame than rifles, and because 2) Relic. Also, commander ELITE INF is not how you fix an army. Just accept the fact that some allied factions are designed differently than Axis factions, and thus need well scaling baseline infantry. ITS NOT BLOBBING, blobbing is countered by mgs, ostwinds, tanks, mines, panzerwerers, etc.

Soviets and OKW rely very heavily on call infantry so why is this even a point? I mean if your saying that is sucks USF lacks variety I agree but making rifles literally in the top 4 for most small arms tough squads in the game isn't the way to fix it. Options abound to fixing it.

I guess your just going to ignore my point about AoE suppression and accuracy

Really? Falls aren't 440mp. You are paying an extra cost to deploy them from buildings. They cost and perform as 360mp, and should lose to vet 3 280mp infantry with 120mu invested.

What? Partisans, JLI, and Storms don't pay a tax to jump out of buildings. The fact the reinforce isn't tied to the deployment price doesn't mean they are magically cheaper to call in. And lol I was talking about Vet 3 Fallsch. Vet 3 and 120 Munitions doesn't entitle you to crush all before you.

So please, tell me how this vet 3 has made USF blob so OP that ostwinds, mgs, etc., no longer work.

Well I can't elaborate on things Iv never said. But I can tell you that this change is just a little bit to overboard and needs some rethinking.

.91*.77=0.7007

You're right. My mistake. For some reason I thought they got .71 at vet3. Maybe because I had falls stats open at the same time and looked at the wrong thing.

<snip>

You expect him to watch you finish a game vs AI?

I watched the replay and i'll be honest I'm not convinced the received accuracy buff made a blind bit of difference in that match.

Well, personally i would have used some received acc on Vet3 of around ~15-20%, 25% is always a bit in the "major change" direction.
But let's be real here: does it make that much of a difference between ~35-40%, or 45%? Nope.
They needed better scaling, they're the (quite pricy) backbone of the USF.

Those few percent barely make any difference, and by the time they actually hit Vet3 you should have superior combined arms anyways. So their bonus works exactly as intended: more survivability and less bleed late game.




"lass die Kirche im Dorf"
(keep the church in the village - don't exaggerate so much about peanuts)


P.S.: seriously, those Vet3 Rifles won't magically appear.
P.P.S.: i'd still say though it should be lowered a tiny bit.

I believe that the 25% increase is too high. Smaller bit sized changes would be a better approach, 15% for example.

You expect him to watch you finish a game vs AI?

I watched the replay and i'll be honest I'm not convinced the received accuracy buff made a blind bit of difference in that match.

My point is not that USF is unbeatable but that it makes for boring gameplay. Also just kinda calling commash out and lying about watching the replay lmao