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Panzer 4 Command Tank is Overperforming

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Mr. Someguy
15 Sep 2015, 21:17 PM
#61
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Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 19:06 PMmomo4sho
It was not a lie and I have instances of a pz4 command tank beating an m4a3 sherman in my broadcasts. I will try to look for it and link it here later.


Must've just been heavy RNG, I once had Conscripts wipe my Sturmpioneers at point-blank range (both units on A-move, met each other at a corner, so there was no closing distance) with 2 casualties. I was flabbergasted, they deserve fuckin' Hero of the Soviet Union for that trick.

But in normal conditions the Panzer IV Command Tank cannot successfully 1v1 anything heavier than a Stuart or SU-76. I once made the mistake of thinking I could chase down an M10 TD with one, did not end well for the P4.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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Firesparks
15 Sep 2015, 21:24 PM
#62
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 18:59 PMmomo4sho


So what does 20% less damage actually mean? 20% more health

You are doing a great job at making yourself look incompetent. :loco:


actually it's more like 25% more hp in practice, since 100 /.80 = 125.


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RMMLz
15 Sep 2015, 21:25 PM
#63
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Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 20:47 PMLemonJuice
For the record the exact buff is 20% reduction in damage, which equates to 25% additional effective health. 20% damage reduce does not equal 20% more effective hp.


I'm not really good at stats and math and shit, could you please explain?

http://dadmand-art.ir/
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Firesparks
15 Sep 2015, 21:31 PM
#64
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 21:25 PMRMMLz


I'm not really good at stats and math and shit, could you please explain?


1/.80 = 1.25

or to give example.

a 80 hp unit will take 4 shots from a 20 damage gun before dying

the same 80 hp unit will take 5 shots from a 16 (20*.80 = 16) damage bun before dying.

therefore, a .80 received damage increase your hp by 25%.


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5trategos
15 Sep 2015, 21:45 PM
#65
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Posts: 449

I really like the direction Relic took with the Brit command tank by giving it a 50% speed reduction.

It forces the player to be smart with his positioning. Conversely, a proper flank from the opposing side is also much harder to escape from so good counterplay is rewarded. Win-Win.

I could see a small speed reduction working well on the Ost counterpart. Something around 10%.
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elchino7
16 Sep 2015, 01:25 AM
#66
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Unit is fine.
Synergy is strong, true, but i don't think it merits a nerf.

Removing self buff should be enough.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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Appleseed
16 Sep 2015, 01:41 AM
#67
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Posts: 622

my suggestion on it is move to both T3 and T4, so give OH player a choice, not force to go T3 to have command tank and only P4 in the game. usually in 1v1 OH player need choose between T3 and T4, because they can't afford to have both.
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RMMLz
16 Sep 2015, 08:27 AM
#68
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2015, 21:31 PMFiresparks


1/.80 = 1.25

or to give example.

a 80 hp unit will take 4 shots from a 20 damage gun before dying

the same 80 hp unit will take 5 shots from a 16 (20*.80 = 16) damage bun before dying.

therefore, a .80 received damage increase your hp by 25%.


Thanks.

http://dadmand-art.ir/
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RiCE
16 Sep 2015, 08:41 AM
#69
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Posts: 284

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 01:41 AMAppleseed
my suggestion on it is move to both T3 and T4, so give OH player a choice, not force to go T3 to have command tank and only P4 in the game. usually in 1v1 OH player need choose between T3 and T4, because they can't afford to have both.


So whats the point locking it behind teching?
The tank cannot fight with other tanks. No one will pull a command panzer as their first vehicle. In practice you choose T3 or T4, build a normal tank, THEN call in a P4 to receive aura boost.
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Firesparks
16 Sep 2015, 08:56 AM
#70
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 08:41 AMRiCE


So whats the point locking it behind teching?
The tank cannot fight with other tanks. No one will pull a command panzer as their first vehicle. In practice you choose T3 or T4, build a normal tank, THEN call in a P4 to receive aura boost.


actually the command panzer is useful as your first tanks.

the main gun is still useful against any light vehicle and infantry. The extra durability make it useful as meatshield for paks/schrecks, in addition to directly boosting their durability.


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__deleted__
16 Sep 2015, 09:07 AM
#71
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Posts: 1225

PIV will need extremely favourable RNG to even make a significant dent into any other medium, let alone kill it, however, I would certainly agree that at present it is op. Tying it to tech without applying the same treatment to all other call ins would be absurd (and fat chance of that happening), instead, I would just tweak the aura bonus downwards.
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Katitof
16 Sep 2015, 09:09 AM
#72
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 08:41 AMRiCE


So whats the point locking it behind teching?
The tank cannot fight with other tanks. No one will pull a command panzer as their first vehicle. In practice you choose T3 or T4, build a normal tank, THEN call in a P4 to receive aura boost.


Actually, you get pak wall, command tank and stall for T4.
Its extremely old strat that only got more valid with the aura changes.

Command tank ensures your squads won't be one shotted by nades or mortars, your infantry can fend off opponents more easily, your AT guns aren't decrewed easily unless directly hit by some big guns.

So no, it does make perfect sense to get command tank as first armor and it was perfectly valid since forever.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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RiCE
16 Sep 2015, 09:10 AM
#73
avatar of RiCE

Posts: 284

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 08:56 AMFiresparks


actually the command panzer is useful as your first tanks.

the main gun is still useful against any light vehicle and infantry. The extra durability make it useful as meatshield for paks/schrecks, in addition to directly boosting their durability.


It is good against light vehicles and infantry, yes. But is it OP because of that? I dont think so.
Its not harder to deal with than an Ostwind, and 8 CP is around T3 anyway.

I dont think its broken because of this.
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RiCE
16 Sep 2015, 09:42 AM
#74
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Posts: 284

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 09:09 AMKatitof


Actually, you get pak wall, command tank and stall for T4.
Its extremely old strat that only got more valid with the aura changes.

Command tank ensures your squads won't be one shotted by nades or mortars, your infantry can fend off opponents more easily, your AT guns aren't decrewed easily unless directly hit by some big guns.

So no, it does make perfect sense to get command tank as first armor and it was perfectly valid since forever.


Okay, you can get it for first unit, but still its 8CP, and fights as an Ostwind. I dont think its hard to be handled because of the self-boost or the doctrinal nature.

Im not sure a PAK wall + CmdP4 is a viable tactic. Maybe in late game, yes, when you got your protection against enemy infantry too, but in early or mid game, almost 1000MP investment on pure AT is a bit too much for me to be viable...

Still, my question is:
Is the Command Panzer4 really broken? and if you think it is, then why?! Because its not locked behind tier?! or because of the +1 shot it can take against 160 damage vehicles?
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Butcher
16 Sep 2015, 09:52 AM
#75
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Posts: 1217

The Command P-IV is perfectly fine. I don´t want it to become a liability again, like it was in the previous patches. It costs as much as a regular P-IV and offers much wore AT capabilities, thus the aura should be effective.
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Esxile
16 Sep 2015, 11:50 AM
#76
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Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

The unit is really useful now with the mid game meta. It counter everything on the field at the moment it popup + being extremely resilient to its own counter + let you skip T3 to rush T4. If I had to choose how to reduce its presence, I would make the aura an ability costing ammo with CD. Bringing a bit more decision making in it.
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Mr. Someguy
16 Sep 2015, 11:56 AM
#77
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Posts: 4928

It's fine, it should just die in 4 hits like a normal Panzer IV. Either lower his health to 512 or remove the buff on himself.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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Katitof
16 Sep 2015, 12:19 PM
#78
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Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 11:56 AMMr. Someguy
It's fine, it should just die in 4 hits like a normal Panzer IV. Either lower his health to 512 or remove the buff on himself.

You have the very explanation why it doesn't die in 4 hits like a normal P4 in this very thread.
Its effective health is on panther/KV-1 level, it needs 5 penetrating hits from AT gun to die.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Butcher
16 Sep 2015, 19:16 PM
#79
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 12:19 PMKatitof

You have the very explanation why it doesn't die in 4 hits like a normal P4 in this very thread.
Its effective health is on panther/KV-1 level, it needs 5 penetrating hits from AT gun to die.
And the T-34/85 which has the same health as a Panther. It´s also a medium tank such as the Panzer IV. Perfectly fine.

Jeez, we are talking about the Panzer IV taking one shot more than a regular Panzer IV. You know what´s a real problem? Emplacements being immmune to their hard counters by pushing a button. But heaven forbid the Panzer IV takes a shot more to kill. For the first time in Coh2 history the vehicle is useful. But we can of course nerf it and switch back to Tiger/ Elefant meta.
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Mr. Someguy
16 Sep 2015, 21:05 PM
#80
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Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2015, 12:19 PMKatitof
You have the very explanation why it doesn't die in 4 hits like a normal P4 in this very thread.
Its effective health is on panther/KV-1 level, it needs 5 penetrating hits from AT gun to die.


Do you even read the entire post before you respond?
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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