Panzer 4 Command Tank is Overperforming

This unit, as of recent patches, has propelled itself into the spotlight as an indispensable tool in the Wehrmacht army. This unit, which does not require any preconditions to spawn ( other than command points ), is responsible for so many comebacks and victories because of its inherently broken design and ease of use. Not only can it go toe to toe with nearly any other medium tank in the game that requires teching, but it provides an enormous endurance buff to other core Wehrmacht units, which combined together, provide for an extremely potent strategy that is absurdly hard to break. This applies especially so in 1v1, and more so to USF than Soviets.

Investing exorbitant amounts of resources to defeat this unit, and the extremely efficient support that it surrounds itself with, is frankly unfair given the nature in which this unit is created.

The only suggestion I think would truly solve this issue, since removing the unit all together is a fantasy, is that we apply the same treatment we gave to the E8 Sherman and T-34/85's and move it into T3 so that it requires much more investment to produce.

I know I usually do not involve myself in the balance discussions on this forum, mostly due to their irrational and toxic arguments, but I felt It should be necessary to raise this issue since we are on the verge of the biggest tournament in Coh2 History.

I hope this thread provides for a Civil discussion and that moderators filter out the divisive and unnecessary rhetoric that this sub-thread usually entails.

Thank you !!

+1.
I see no harm in adding in a tech requirement for it, given its current potency.

(On another note, The M4C Sherman should probably get the same treatment. Lend Lease can be played as the new Advanced Warfare, for all its hilarity. Killed a Tiger Ace and a Panther in the same engagement by drowning them in Con AT nades and Call-in Shermans)

You are blowing the effectiveness way out of proportions here mate. the p4 command tank is a snub nosed variant of the p4 and has zero capability to tackle heavy armour.

But if you want to put it in tier 3 be my guest.

momo4sho allied fanboy omg

J/K

I agree Momo, but I'm afraid people would rather go for a regular P4 then instead, leaving P4 command tank doctrines in an awkward spot. But I like the idea with some tweaks and adjustmets. Could we do the same to the M4C Sherman from Lend Lease aswell? And the KV8, IS2, ISU, Tiger, ... while we're at it.

momo4sho allied fanboy omg

J/K

I agree Momo, but I'm afraid people would rather go for a regular P4 then instead, leaving P4 command tank doctrines in an awkward spot. But I like the idea with some tweaks and adjustmets. Could we do the same to the M4C Sherman from Lend Lease aswell? And the KV8, IS2, ISU, Tiger, ... while we're at it.

+1 all call ins should be limited

It beats an M4c 1on1 so yeah a nerf is in order.

It beats an M4c 1on1 so yeah a nerf is in order.

that's not the point dude

momo4sho allied fanboy omg

J/K

I agree Momo, but I'm afraid people would rather go for a regular P4 then instead, leaving P4 command tank doctrines in an awkward spot. But I like the idea with some tweaks and adjustmets. Could we do the same to the M4C Sherman from Lend Lease aswell? And the KV8, IS2, ISU, Tiger, ... while we're at it.

I do recognize the issue of keeping it relevant and that putting it into T3 will undoubtedly make players second guess their decisions. I think this is healthy for the game and would involve more tactical thinking and decision making rather than "hue hue call in tank ". Put it up to the Wehrmacht player to decide which unit would satisfy their most immediate concern instead of pigeon holing them into call ins. Do I want a more AT capable unit, or one that boosts my core and can allow me to hold and capture certain points much more efficiently?

That's the type of discourse I would like to initiate for all units that are similar to this one, as the ones you mentioned. I am certainly for the same treatment for these others, but I think they might deserve a case by case analysis rather than grouping them all together.

used to be that the commandIV was shit because it didn't have any accuracy and the pen was low. the buff helped it a lot but then WFA and the brits were released and the meta has changed a lot. i don't really want the effectiveness against infantry changed but the pen and/or cost would be good places if it's over preforming.

+1 all call ins should be limited

commannd IV has always been capped at one, at least since the original beta.

P4 is good vs infantry on ly and vehicles, probably never seen it killing any mediums, it has like 0 chance to penetrate them in front

P4 is good vs infantry on ly and vehicles, probably never seen it killing any mediums, it has like 0 chance to penetrate them in front

This is not true and I suggest for you to test it out for yourself if you haven't witnessed it before.

Of course it is not as lethal vs mediums as a regular Panzer 4, but it can get the job done, especially with the support that is almost always with it.

It's not exactly a 'hue hue hue lubricate i'm coming' kind of call in. A fast AEC/stuart can kick his ass.


What is more broken is the M4C sherman.

I don't have an opinion on the topic (forgive me), but I felt compelled to compliment your presentation. Your post is very well written and I've taken a genuine interest in the issue.

momo4sho allied fanboy omg

J/K

I agree Momo, but I'm afraid people would rather go for a regular P4 then instead, leaving P4 command tank doctrines in an awkward spot. But I like the idea with some tweaks and adjustmets. Could we do the same to the M4C Sherman from Lend Lease aswell? And the KV8, IS2, ISU, Tiger, ... while we're at it.

+1

I find it too durable. Maybe they should change it so the buff it gives doesn't apply to itself?

momo4sho allied fanboy omg

J/K

I agree Momo, but I'm afraid people would rather go for a regular P4 then instead, leaving P4 command tank doctrines in an awkward spot. But I like the idea with some tweaks and adjustmets. Could we do the same to the M4C Sherman from Lend Lease aswell? And the KV8, IS2, ISU, Tiger, ... while we're at it.

+1

Really wish Relic would reach out to the top players of this game and have them balance it. Their suggestions are fair and not biased. (In most cases )

This unit, as of recent patches, has propelled itself into the spotlight as an indispensable tool in the Wehrmacht army. This unit, which does not require any preconditions to spawn ( other than command points ), is responsible for so many comebacks and victories because of its inherently broken design and ease of use. Not only can it go toe to toe with nearly any other medium tank in the game that requires teching, but it provides an enormous endurance buff to other core Wehrmacht units, which combined together, provide for an extremely potent strategy that is absurdly hard to break. This applies especially so in 1v1, and more so to USF than Soviets...

Not only can it go toe to toe with nearly any other medium tank

provides an enormous endurance buff

Based on this, i guess you don't even know the tank and the aura stats.

Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none.

I find it too durable. Maybe they should change it so the buff it gives doesn't apply to itself?

I'm a fan of this approach + limiting it to tier 3 as others have suggested. I mean, I think all call-ins should be tied to buildings, or at least all tanks, but yeah.

Based on this, i guess you don't even know the tank and the aura stats.

Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none.

Oh please. You weren't watching momo's stream the other day. (He won, btw.)

Well, I think that because of the amount of doctrines it comes in, it should be divided into two separate units. For the more used doctrines like Mobile Defense doctrine it should be changed into standard, short barrel p4 that is in the game with its full stats for the purpose of ToW. For other, less appealing doctrines it should stay as is in order to make them more appealing and increase number of usefull commanders and strategies.

That said it shouldn't be tied to tier 3 as it limits the options given to the player. Maybe it could be tied to battlephase 2 in order to make it cheaper than p4, but not cheap ass option.

The choice wheather the doctrine should get command p4 or short barrel p4 should be made by relic as they know all the usage data for those commander but I would personally change Mobile Defence, Festung Armor and Fortified Armor, while leaving Blitzkried and Mechanised as they are right now.

IDK I haven't seen a problem with the unit. It's when it's combined with Panther commander and/or super heavy tanks from OKW that it starts to really snowball