SdKfz 221 vs M3A1 (weapon performance)

Hi there.

Since in terms of price and tech the SdKfz 221 (222 with 2cm) and the M3A1 are at the same level I compared them a little closer, because I had the feeling that the SdKfz is performing pretty bad in camparsion to the russian Scout Car.

So the russian Scout Car is fragile, but the main gun somewhat hurts infrantry quite noticable.
The other game I was harrasing an enemy mortar (vet 0, no cover) with and SdKfz 221, drove up at point blank range and that piece of shit did basicly nothing. Isn't that what this thing is made for? Harrasing weapon teams and snipers?

When you compare the stats of both vehicles, you basicly see this...

SdKfz 221:
Cost: 80/25
Health: 160
Armor: 11/5.5
Speed/Acceleration: 6/5
Weapon DPS: 4.00 (Far) / 16.03 (Near)

M3A1:
Cost: 80/20
Health: 160
Armor: 8.4/4,2
Speed/Acceleration: 6/5
Weapon DPS: 7,76 (Far) / 10,99 (Near)

Also to notice is that the M3A1 has a limitied firing arc, whereas the SdKfz has a 360° turret and the M3A1 can transport troops.
The SdKfz has 30% better armor compared to the M1A3, that's why you pay 5 more fuel I guess. But the rest of the stats are basicly the same.

INSTEAD of that utterly crap main gun of the SdKfz, it is BS big time!

And for those who might say "look at the Near damage, it's awesome point blank", that's why i mentioned the example with the mortar before.
CoH2Stats shows a "Near" range of 0 (for both guns of SdKfz and M3A1), which means you always have the accuarcy of firing at "Far" range.
At first I thought it might be a bug of CoH2Stats. But after desprately trying to kill that mortar at close range I really think it's correct.

I haven't played alpha or closed beta, so I don't know if it has simply nerfed into this, but right now the german Scout Car doesn't seem viable to me with this weapon performance, especially compared to the russian counterpart.

Below are my calulations for the weapon dps. Correct me if I have misscalculated something.

SdKfz 221 MG34:

216,8 * 7,2 * 0,125 = 195,1 damage (Far)
7,5 * (2,125 + 3,25) + 2,125 + 6,25 = 48,7 sec

216,8 * 7,2 * 0,5 = 780,5 damage (Near)
7,5 * (2,125 + 3,25) + 2,125 + 6,25 = 48,7 sec

= 4,00 DPS (Far)
= 16,03 DPS (Near)


M3A1 M2 .50 Machine Gun:

123,5 * 9,9 * 0,37 = 452,4 (Far)
8,5 * (1,625 + 4,4) + 1,625 + 5,5 = 58,3

123,5 * 9,9 * 0,5 = 611,3 (Near)
8,5 * (1,625 + 4,4) + 1,625 + 2,75 = 55,6

= 7,76 DPS (Far)
= 10,99 DPS (Near)


Please Discuss!

Regards
ace

I wouldn't disagree with seeing a buff to the AC's dps vs infantry with it's normal gun (not upgrade) so you can at least run down snipers properly with it. But I would really not like to see it turn into the unit that it used to be in vcoh because it was way too good vs infantry, I like it's specialized role now.

I think slightly decreasing the damage of the M3 and increasing the moving accuracy of the 221's mg from 0.5 to 0.8 or so would be a possible change.

Other than that they could also just change the 221's hull mounted dummy mg from dealing 0 damage to 4 or so damage. Having a weapon on it that looks like it is shooting but does 0 damage is stupid.

I wouldn't disagree with seeing a buff to the AC's dps vs infantry with it's normal gun (not upgrade) so you can at least run down snipers properly with it. But I would really not like to see it turn into the unit that it used to be in vcoh because it was way too good vs infantry, I like it's specialized role now.

Basically this. I also feel like the upgrade should be cheaper and less effective. Hard counters are imo kind of boring: if you see an m3a1 scout car, you build SdKfz 221 and upgun it and kill the M3 easily. Make the upgun 40 muni and 2/3 as effective.

I wouldn't mind it being deadly as in CoH1 because it doesn't get overdrive, gets nearly one shotted by AT nades, you can have AT guns as early as you need them, and Guards tear them up + button.

Even it is 100% = PE SC/AC, only get overdrive when vetted, it's still ok.

Soviet get T70 as that unit role, at least Ostheer getting something at least like Puma?

They have a longer fire burst than the M3s and in my experience they are the perfect unit to get (even two of them) vs shock troops since you can keep them at distance, they also vet extremely fast. But yes a slight dmg buff wouldn't be bad at all, together with a slight munitions cost reduction for the upgrade (make it 50 munis).

Its not specifically related to thr vehicle mounted weapon stats, but I still cant understand why m3 gets roughly equivalent MG dmg, roughly equivalent speed, roughly equivalent survival, for roughly the same cost.

But then ontop of that it gets a garrison for free, and an open garrison, at that, again, for free.

Cost efficiency is completely broken between these two units imo.

I feel like the m3 does WAY more damage then the AC...

I feel like the m3 does WAY more damage then the AC...

That's what a tried to point out
If you look at the numbers the M3 does almost twice as much damage as the SdKfz. 221 (+ whatever is garrisoned inside).

So, if everyone seems to think that the damage needs a buff, how to report thos thoughts to the devs?

Soviet scouts are the only way around mg bunkers and mg spam... All out scripts doesn't really work on some maps. The clown car only works in the beginning of the game and the upgraded AC tears it to pieces....all is fine on that front. I got scout car rushed in a 1on1 and all my mgs...everything had to retreat or die...so I just broke down, got the AC + upgraded gun...Car was dead in like 2-3 shots...not time to even leave the area...then he lost all map control that fast. He wasn't that good...but there is a simple counter...AC. I wouldn't bother with the gren faust...rather go with something useful that is gonna stick around for a bit.

I would not mind switching them around, i would love to upgrade my m3 with really good light tank AT.

I wouldn't disagree with seeing a buff to the AC's dps vs infantry with it's normal gun (not upgrade) so you can at least run down snipers properly with it. But I would really not like to see it turn into the unit that it used to be in vcoh because it was way too good vs infantry, I like it's specialized role now.

Yep, I'd have to say that's the only change that might be necessary, but it certainly worth testing via patch.

I've noticed that by the time I can get the 221 AC on the field, I can usually afford 2-3 of them. I'm pretty far away from getting PIV's/StuG's, and don't tend to have the infantry stopping power necessary to deal with 3 conscripts + maybe a guard squad.

So I get two ACs and head to micro-city. I find that they are the bane of Combat Engineers and Conscript squads. Well micro'd, they can take down half a squad before the heat-seeking AT nade flies through the fog of war. Having a fallback point where pios and vehicles can congregate is fairly essential, but the AC's are so cheap relative to other vehicles that eventually become available that losing about 2, or even 3 of them, won't hurt your forces as long as you aren't completely relying on them.

I've been using the SdKfz 221/222 quite a bit, and have incorporated it in most of my builds. Here's my take on it based on a couple hundred hours' worth.

The upgraded 2cm is completely worthless what with the cost reduction to the StuG and the German factions natural capability of fielding combined arms without issue in resources.
The 2cm is a weaker version of the 35mm Flak of the Ostwind, and in my view serves to fulfill that function in earlier-tier gameplay, allowing the Ostheer player the ability to hold out longer with T2 units to potentially buy time for the Panther/Panzerwerfer to make an appearance, forcing the Soviet to counter the presence of Scout Cars with Guards and possibly T-70s.

That said, the 2cm is *effective* at killing any vehicle at equal fuel cost, but this only holds true for Light Vehicles, up to T-70s.
However, one is left wondering why you would get the 2cm to counter vehicles to begin with, when the fact of the matter is that this weapon is equipped on a chassis that can barely deal with rifle fire, combined with accuracy that serves to make the 2cm AC a -downgrade- in terms of Anti-Infantry capability.

One should not overlook the 2cms Anti-Air capability outright, but as of yet the Soviets have very little if any counterable Air Cover. The 4x50kg bombing strike requires the AA to be positioned before the impact zone, and as the maps as of yet are far too linear to allow for flanking manouvres of this element, this only leaves the NKVD Terror Tactics Scout Plane to be countered.

TL;DR the Scout Car is a lightly armored vehicle with strong AI capabilities, with the current 2cm being a downgrade to AI capabilities but allowing a (pointless) Anti-Air damage source with (equally marginal benefits of) Anti-Light Vehicle damage. The Scout Car is extremely susceptible to infantry, a single AT grenade spelling its immediate demise. Not to mention the Penal Batallion's Anti-Light Vehicle Rifles (yeah, whatever happened there) letalone Guards' PTRS which can take out a Scout Car with just 3-4 hits.

The (current) role of the Scout Car as defined by its statistics and strengths, is a Medium-to-Long Distance source of Anti-Infantry Damage. It cannot afford to let infantry get in range of AT grenades, focused rifle fire, and even with Vet 2 armor upgrade it will be completely outmatched by a single squad of Penals or Guards.

In resolution and in my humble opinion, the major element that the Scout Car allows for, is the ability to detect Infantry on the minimap from a safe corner/location on the map where the Scout Car can hole up. For 10 munitions it can detect roughly 2x its LOS radius, without in any way being hindered by TrueSight. Coupling this with Mortars in T0-T2 allows for a strong field presence indeed, always having the element of surprize on your side. Afaik the Soviets have very little that is similar to this mechanic, I know of ZiS DFGs having a similar, arguably better mechanic for detecting vehicles, and I believe the SU-85 has a better version of this ability allowing both extended LOS and Minimap detection, but these are both much more expensive to use, and play part much later in the game.

Another strength of the SdKfz 221 as noted by someone else before me, is the very quick Vet Gain. Killing an M3A1+Sniper combo aka Clowncar provides the SdKfz 221 with an immediate Vet 2, though as noted the armor upgrade is marginally beneficial, and still leaves the vehicle susceptible to any softcounters.

Read at your own discretion, this is merely my opinion, though I feel it is based strongly on practical application.

I wouldn't disagree with seeing a buff to the AC's dps vs infantry with it's normal gun (not upgrade) so you can at least run down snipers properly with it. But I would really not like to see it turn into the unit that it used to be in vcoh because it was way too good vs infantry, I like it's specialized role now.

+1

@Fortune

There are some points in your elaboration I tend to agree but i think your are talking a little away from the topic.

1.
This is not about the 2cm upgrade, that's why I called it SdKfz. 221 (with 2cm i would be the SdKfz 222). This weapon opens this vehicles a totally different (limited) role. Though in reality the 2cm means an absolute bane for infantry, like most players here I definitly don't want the PE Armored Car from Opposing fronts back.

2.
Maybe you skipped my calcution in the first post. But it's programmatically safe to say that the DPS sucks. Period.
Even more when you compare it to the Russian Scout Car's maih gun which has almost twice the DPS.

3.
Besides all the stuff you wrote about the use and functionality of the SdKfz, i barely miss a unit that is capable of flaking and harrassing weapon teams/snipers, pushing back lone squads which try to wild-cap around the map.
All the stuff the Russian M3A1 works pretty well.

Beste regards
ace

@Fortune

There are some points in your elaboration I tend to agree but i think your are talking a little away from the topic.

1.
This is not about the 2cm upgrade, that's why I called it SdKfz. 221 (with 2cm i would be the SdKfz 222). This weapon opens this vehicles a totally different (limited) role. Though in reality the 2cm means an absolute bane for infantry, like most players here I definitly don't want the PE Armored Car from Opposing fronts back.

2.
Maybe you skipped my calcution in the first post. But it's programmatically safe to say that the DPS sucks. Period.
Even more when you compare it to the Russian Scout Car's maih gun which has almost twice the DPS.

3.
Besides all the stuff you wrote about the use and functionality of the SdKfz, i barely miss a unit that is capable of flaking and harrassing weapon teams/snipers, pushing back lone squads which try to wild-cap around the map.
All the stuff the Russian M3A1 works pretty well.

Beste regards
ace

If you like, I can send you a replay or two of the SdKfz 221 taking out entire squads in retreat, and doing quite nice damage overall.

Though the M3 is arguably more useful, one must consider the fact that the Special Rifle barracks is a tactical/build choice that inherently weakens the Soviets' field control and defensive capabilities, as compared to Support Weapons.
The SdKfz on the other hand, adds to almost any builds the German might use, without influencing the overall tech tree.

@Fortune

Sorry buddy but the numbers are totally against you.
If you are extremly lucky you might kill of 1 or 2 soldiers on retreat but in most cases you won't. Simply because of the bad accuracy of this vehicle.

If the 221 is on the move and fires against a target walking/retreating over light cover it only has 12.5% * 0.5 * 0.5 = 3.125% accuarcy. CAN happen but in most cases you wont even hit shit.

The M3A1 in the same scenario has 37% * 0.5 * 0.5 = 9,25% accuracy.

And that's IMHO the major thing about the SdKfz - its bad accuarcy of 12.5% (vs 37% of the M3A1).

Just saw it today in match again:
The SdKfz does some dammge and actually kills a combar egineer capping a strat point and i think "oh oh, see, yes, it does damage" but right after it shoots for seconds not doing a thing.

The accuracy should be increased by a fair amount, even alter the weapon damage down to keep the dps balanced. But PLEASE more accuarcy to make more reliable.

ace

@Fortune

Sorry buddy but the numbers are totally against you.
If you are extremly lucky you might kill of 1 or 2 soldiers on retreat but in most cases you won't. Simply because of the bad accuracy of this vehicle.

If the 221 is on the move and fires against a target walking/retreating over light cover it only has 12.5% * 0.5 * 0.5 = 3.125% accuarcy. CAN happen but in most cases you wont even hit shit.

The M3A1 in the same scenario has 37% * 0.5 * 0.5 = 9,25% accuracy.

And that's IMHO the major thing about the SdKfz - its bad accuarcy of 12.5% (vs 37% of the M3A1).

Just saw it today in match again:
The SdKfz does some dammge and actually kills a combar egineer capping a strat point and i think "oh oh, see, yes, it does damage" but right after it shoots for seconds not doing a thing.

The accuracy should be increased by a fair amount, even alter the weapon damage down to keep the dps balanced. But PLEASE more accuarcy to make more reliable.

ace

Anyone who has played CoH1 knows that the secret is to use the vehicle speed to close the gap in between bursts and fire stationary. Massively increases accuracy vs retreating.

I think, SdKfz 221 need some buff.

less fuel(20. same as M3), less upgrade muni(50).


and need more detection range by default. (not skill)