Ostheer Sniper overperforming

Tommie scaling isn't really any stronger then other infantry.

I think I just better ignore reading your posts!

If that's your understanding of tommies vet bonus, you know nothing Kattitof!

The accuracy boost for bren carrier is nice but it wouldn't have been my preferred method of balancing. They need a recloak time increase and they need a worse rec accuracy modifier. They were made increasingly durable to protect from explosions, not to protect from getting flanked by infantry. Bren carrier is still going to be a total crapshoot because the vickers-k upgrade is garbage tier and one faust is still going to cost you the unit.

light vehicle lack any durability outside of early game. Any sniper hunting attempt will inevitably be a one way trip. If you can't kill it on the first attempt you're already in the red in terms of resources.

What sniper needs is a nerf to their retreat bonus. Even a rifleman have problem killing them on retreat.

Also, the british sniper's rof over distance is almost flat, unlike the soviet and german sniper who fire faster as the enemy get closer.

Right now it is not impossible to kill snipers with a decent flank. Sniper hunting is not conducted by a bren carrier rushing into the enemys position. I can imagine if you have a vehicle dealing 50% increased damage within your flanking force, it becomes way more easy.

Nerfing retreat bonus could make them unplayable. And the british sniper can fight armor. No wonder he s clearly weaker then other snipers in the game.

Lets play new patch first, then judge. Relic presented a solution which seems very viable IMHO.

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And the british sniper can fight armor. No wonder he s clearly weaker then other snipers in the game.

the british deal 40 damage per shot if he penetrate. His AT capability is only around the level of one PTRS. it's not like he's using a Schreck or something.

His real anti-tank capability comes from his critical shot ability, which is a clone of the OKW puma's aim shot. Useful but not that powerful.

I fully support a nerf for ost sniper, but RoF is not the way to go. Cause that makes him useless against soviets.

Better would be to adjust his Rof vs UKF/USF via a target table which increases aim time.

I fully support a nerf for ost sniper, but RoF is not the way to go. Cause that makes him useless against soviets.

Better would be to adjust his Rof vs UKF/USF via a target table which increases aim time.

Not every unit is valid against any faction.
Its not like soviet snipers inflict heavy bleed on volks either, so your argument is countered for over a year already.

Not every unit is valid against any faction.
Its not like soviet snipers inflict heavy bleed on volks either, so your argument is countered for over a year already.

If you recall correctly I've been posting about how squad sizes NEED to be standardized for quite some time now. And to counter your point:

Those target tables can be implemented to give sov sniper a higher RoF vs volks too. And I'd say that's a better solution than an indirect stealth buff to all sov infantry and weapon crews vs ost by nerfing ost sniper RoF.

But ofcourse, you'd love any buff for soviets wouldn't you?

I'm not talking about soviets, I'm talking about mechanics.

Take of your bias against me for a moment and see arguments, not what you want to see.

Follow up on your logic, you must be pretty damn upset about ost turbomortar nerf.

Ost never relied on snipers vs sov and they never will, mortars and HMGs were always superior choices.

I'm not talking about soviets, I'm talking about mechanics.

Take of your bias against me for a moment and see arguments, not what you want to see.

Follow up on your logic, you must be pretty damn upset about ost turbomortar nerf.

Ost never relied on snipers vs sov and they never will, mortars and HMGs were always superior choices.

I freely admit to being biased. I am biased against all fanboys. But you man, I expect better of you. You've been around since the release and are STILL the same. So I guess I just get, idk, disappointed. Not that you ought to care one whit (and I mean that sincerely) but since you raised it, I thought I ought to clarify.

OT

I'm actually quite happy about ost mortar nerf ty. I made several posts to that effect in the Wehrmacht mortar thread.

And I did see the argument. I think I gave you a valid counter. And as far as ost never relying on snipers vs soviets? Really? Its arguably the best early game unit vs sov tier 2 and shocks. But I digress. I'm not trying to hold a strategy discussion with you.

Here's the heart of the issue:

The only difference between what I proposed (Target table rof adjustments to ost/sov snipers vs rifles & tommies/volks instead of a general RoF adjustment) is that that way ost balance vs sov weapon crews and squads doesn't suffer, and UKF and Brits don't have to worry so much about ost sniper. Everyone wins. But you're still against it?

So really, what exactly is your problem with it?

Take of your bias against me for a moment and see arguments, not what you want to see

I think that one sentence completely sums you up.

I freely admit to being biased. I am biased against all fanboys. But you man, I expect better of you. You've been around since the release and are STILL the same. So I guess I just get, idk, disappointed. Not that you ought to care one whit (and I mean that sincerely) but since you raised it, I thought I ought to clarify.

OT

I'm actually quite happy about ost mortar nerf ty. I made several posts to that effect in the Wehrmacht mortar thread.

And I did see the argument. I think I gave you a valid counter. And as far as ost never relying on snipers vs soviets? Really? Its arguably the best early game unit vs sov tier 2 and shocks. But I digress. I'm not trying to hold a strategy discussion with you.

Here's the heart of the issue:

The only difference between what I proposed (Target table rof adjustments to ost/sov snipers vs rifles & tommies/volks instead of a general RoF adjustment) is that that way ost balance vs sov weapon crews and squads doesn't suffer, and UKF and Brits don't have to worry so much about ost sniper. Everyone wins. But you're still against it?

So really, what exactly is your problem with it?

I got warned about fanboys on this forum. Is this Katikof one of them?

Btw I like your suggestions, they sound very solid!

Better have a back up plan, because I don't think coh2 target table is going to work that way.

COH1 target table doesn't allow for different ROF against different target. The closest thing is Penetration and accuracy, but that's far too rng.

Better have a back up plan, because I don't think coh2 target table is going to work that way.

COH1 target table doesn't allow for different ROF against different target. The closest thing is Penetration and accuracy, but that's far too rng.

Already do, and in two flavours:

1) The ideal (long term plan): Standardize the squad sizes across axis and allied factions. This includes weapon crews. Make it 6 man squads for allies. 4 man (or 5 -I've read that 4 man are vulnerable to AoE wipes a lot) for axis.Adjust DPS/RA values accordingly. I call this long-term because more dev time will be needed; but its ideal because then a lot of other imbalances can/will also be accounted for. Take the ost mortar for instance. The devs increased its RoF because otherwise we had 2 mortars but one was firing at 4 man squads, the other at 6 man squads. WFA obviously screwed a lot with that mechanic cause rifles were 5 man (not 6 like sovs) yet ost mortar performance went unattended. Its the release of the 4 man brits and the recent AoE changes that have made it way too much. Ost sniper RoF should be nerfed asap though, even as a stepping stone to this because clearly, the current situation is untenable.

2) The short term: nerf ost sniper RoF across the board but don't touch squad sizes. I must stress that this is pretty much a half baked solution because it (indirectly) is worse for the ost/sov balance. Particularly regarding ost sniper vs sov weapon crews which he's (arguably) supposed to hard counter. Its why I favour target table RoF adjustment, if it can happen.

Already do, and in two flavours:

1) The ideal (long term plan): Standardize the squad sizes across axis and allied factions. This includes weapon crews. Make it 6 man squads for allies. 4 man (or 5 -I've read that 4 man are vulnerable to AoE wipes a lot) for axis.Adjust DPS/RA values accordingly. I call this long-term because more dev time will be needed; but its ideal because then a lot of other imbalances can/will also be accounted for. Take the ost mortar for instance. The devs increased its RoF because otherwise we had 2 mortars but one was firing at 4 man squads, the other at 6 man squads. WFA obviously screwed a lot with that mechanic cause rifles were 5 man (not 6 like sovs) yet ost mortar performance went unattended. Its the release of the 4 man brits and the recent AoE changes that have made it way too much. Ost sniper RoF should be nerfed asap though, even as a stepping stone to this because clearly, the current situation is untenable.

2) The short term: nerf ost sniper RoF across the board but don't touch squad sizes. I must stress that this is pretty much a half baked solution because it (indirectly) is worse for the ost/sov balance. Particularly regarding ost sniper vs sov weapon crews which he's (arguably) supposed to hard counter. Its why I favour target table RoF adjustment, if it can happen.

the sniper needs a durability nerf not a RoF nerf,its durability is BETTER then that of a soviet sniper.

i think this would help ALOT to counter it cause i cant express how manytimes have i flanked Ost Snipers and gets away with half or full health from shock troop/consript/guard/penal flanks or riflemen flanks.

right now the Ost sniper outperforms in every way the soviet sniper

nerf that and its fixed

This thread going in a dumb direction. The main problem is not snipers but the 4 squad poor desing. Ost experiencing the same shit against soviet until 222 comes. Put the sniper T2 ? What a joke or give him anti-tank capacity like the brits one.

At this moment, the only way for brits to counter early sniper is flame carrier. However, keep in mind that snipers are allin start for soviet/ost. It can give you strong avantage vs inf but any lose is a 360 MP pain in the ass and compromising map control.

This thread going in a dumb direction. The main problem is not snipers but the 4 squad poor desing. Ost experiencing the same shit against soviet until 222 comes. Put the sniper T2 ? What a joke or give him anti-tank capacity like the brits one.

At this moment, the only way for brits to counter early sniper is flame carrier. However, keep in mind that snipers are allin start for soviet/ost. It can give you strong avantage vs inf but any lose is a 360 MP pain in the ass and compromising map control.

Thats exactly what I mean. This messing around of squad sizes in between factions is messing up the game

Mind you this is exactly why I support squad size standardization between axis/allies

the sniper needs a durability nerf not a RoF nerf,its durability is BETTER then that of a soviet sniper.

i think this would help ALOT to counter it cause i cant express how manytimes have i flanked Ost Snipers and gets away with half or full health from shock troop/consript/guard/penal flanks or riflemen flanks.

right now the Ost sniper outperforms in every way the soviet sniper

nerf that and its fixed

I agree he and brit sniper should both get a slight (or maybe not so slight) nerf to RA to compensate for the increased hp. Decreasing the HP is imo problematic because otherwise explosives + less than 80 hp snipers = RNG mess

Better have a back up plan, because I don't think coh2 target table is going to work that way.

COH1 target table doesn't allow for different ROF against different target. The closest thing is Penetration and accuracy, but that's far too rng.

Jason_RE
Its quite simple. Its a table that allows us to set specific accuracy/dmg/penetration/suppression multiplier towards either a specific unit or unit type. Its a much more flexible version of what we had in vCOH1.

-What about cooldown, reload or other type of stats ?

It is stats we can add if we need it but we didnt see any instance where we needed to tuned those values specifically for different unit or unit types.

In my opinion, the current problem with the Ostheer sniper's over-performance is a direct result of the massive health buff they received a few patches ago. The purpose of that buff was to prevent him from being wiped by random mortar strikes. However, one direct consequence is that he can escape from nearly all infantry engagements, even if flanked. This is annoying for the USF and Brits who can really suffer from sniper attrition due to their lack of an early game counter (looks like that might change with the light vehicle accuracy buff vs snipers, however). With the creation of the target tables, I think Relic could rather elegantly solve the intended problem of rng wipes while maintaining their role as high risk/high reward units.

My suggestion is to universally bring sniper health to 48 (current soviet sniper health) and use the target tables to make rng based explosives like mortars deal 40 damage to snipers. This would ensure that the snipers from all factions don't get instagibbed by random mortar shots but remain vulnerable to small arms fire or targeted explosive damage (tank shells, grenades, etc). As a result, flanking an Ostheer/British sniper with infantry would be significantly more effective while not directly changing his offensive capabilities.

This would, to some extent, maintain the asymmetric balance of the snipers. Soviets snipers have good survivability while Ostheer snipers are better at killing quickly. USF pathfinders have even more survivability but don't kill full health models. Finally, British snipers have utility vs vehicles and and due to their ROF are not OP versus smaller infantry squads.

I think the argument of nerfing the rate of fire of the Ostheer sniper is flawed because it attempts to address the massive manpower bleed that the Brits suffer in the early game with a change to a single unit from a different faction. Of course, nerfing his ROF across the board would be a massive buff to the larger squad sizes of the Soviets. To this end, some people have also argued for the ROF to be tied to the target tables. In my opinion, the damage changes that I mentioned are a more effective solution to the actual problems with the snipers based on the intent of the previous patches. The manpower bleed woes of the British is another problem that should be addressed separately (e.g. reinforcement cost reduction).

TL;DR: Change all sniper max health values to 48 (same as soviet sniper) and use target tables to force rng explosives to do 40 damage to snipers.