Lets talk about Tommy Atkins

I've tried spamming nothing but Tommies for about 10 games now and it just confirms what has already been said. The most interesting things to note were constant manpower issues, unreliable AT and the complete lack of any anti-garrison weapon.

Faymonville is a loss if you don't take the key house straight away for instance.

The answer surely then is Willy Pete, to give smoke and anti-garrison.

I have no idea why the Axis forces seem to get a grenade for every possible occasion, and cheaply too if the number used is anything to go by, whilst the Brits have to research and pay through the nose for their two very similar grenades. Is this a throwback to when the Brits were first released per chance?

Grenades are arguably the infantry's primary weapon in assault, adding them as a techable after-thought doesn't make much sense.

The incendiary grenades seem to be the worst culprits, a guaranteed wipe or garrison clear for a few munitions. Saying that all of the axis grenade options seem to be quite overpowering and cheap. Where they can get up to a building ( even one defended by a Vickers) to wipe or clear the humble Tommy just doesn't have the tools.

Yup, Flame nades were given because OKW have "No way of dealing with garrisons". Ever tried clearing a building with tommies? It's impossible yet, I guess the counter is "You have a sniper" to which I reply "You have a LEIG, AND a Stuka AND regular nades without teching".

Bloster squads is also stupid, 90% of games its needed to survive so why is it an unlock rather than a staple? I question the games design in this game sometimes. Listen to yourself not the fans relic.

Yup, Flame nades were given because OKW have "No way of dealing with garrisons". Ever tried clearing a building with tommies? It's impossible yet, I guess the counter is "You have a sniper" to which I reply "You have a LEIG, AND a Stuka AND regular nades without teching".

Bloster squads is also stupid, 90% of games its needed to survive so why is it an unlock rather than a staple? I question the games design in this game sometimes. Listen to yourself not the fans relic.

To be fair doesn't UKF cost less to tech up? You can also pick it whenever you want to get an instant firepower boost while other factions rely on vet and buying elite units.


Also with the addition of Royal Engie flamers in the new commander, using Royal Engies as frontline troops may be even more viable.

I've tried spamming nothing but Tommies for about 10 games now and it just confirms what has already been said. The most interesting things to note were constant manpower issues, unreliable AT and the complete lack of any anti-garrison weapon.

Faymonville is a loss if you don't take the key house straight away for instance.

The answer surely then is Willy Pete, to give smoke and anti-garrison.

I have no idea why the Axis forces seem to get a grenade for every possible occasion, and cheaply too if the number used is anything to go by, whilst the Brits have to research and pay through the nose for their two very similar grenades. Is this a throwback to when the Brits were first released per chance?

Grenades are arguably the infantry's primary weapon in assault, adding them as a techable after-thought doesn't make much sense.

The incendiary grenades seem to be the worst culprits, a guaranteed wipe or garrison clear for a few munitions. Saying that all of the axis grenade options seem to be quite overpowering and cheap. Where they can get up to a building ( even one defended by a Vickers) to wipe or clear the humble Tommy just doesn't have the tools.

I think the rifle grenade is fine, even if you aren't there to micro it, you'll here the grenade audio cue and you can at worst retreat your squad. All the Allied factions have to tech grenades however back then USF nades and SU mollies were argubly better than the rifle nade because both allied nades come on the core infantry while gren rifle nades have a minimum distance. But then they gave OKW the best core infantry grenade in the game that not only works as a regular grenade, doesn't need to be researched (albeit requires a truck down so in the early game you know you can freely use building so use that to your advantage) but also burns people out.

i wouldn't mind of volks had either a molly type grenade or a regular frag but not both in one for fucks sake. Or at least force them to tech it.


That being said I don't expect Relic to give IS free grenades however I don't think grenades are worth the upgrade even if they were cheap to research. Even if they do have trouble clearing garrisons, UKF do have the AEC which comes out super fast while USF are stuck with their core infantry until they can tech which takes ages so them researching frags is much more important.

If I'm reading Cruzz's the more you know thread correctly...

Vet bonusses only seem to apply to the original members of a Tommy or Sapper squad, not to the reinforcing newbies, due to a bug. Once they are all dead your Vet 3 IS is no better than a Vet0 one and indeed cannot vet up...

This would explain to me why I find early game IS so meh, whereas buying fresh 5 man squads and giving them Brens straight off is powerful. Basically the Vet they earn tends to stay more as vetting is quite rapid with their firepower whereas the early squads have lost so many of the original team that they become pants in the later game.

Doesn't apply to the Vickers as it is a team weapon.

If I'm reading Cruzz's the more you know thread correctly...

Vet bonusses only seem to apply to the original members of a Tommy or Sapper squad, not to the reinforcing newbies, due to a bug. Once they are all dead your Vet 3 IS is no better than a Vet0 one and indeed cannot vet up...

This would explain to me why I find early game IS so meh, whereas buying fresh 5 man squads and giving them Brens straight off is powerful. Basically the Vet they earn tends to stay more as vetting is quite rapid with their firepower whereas the early squads have lost so many of the original team that they become pants in the later game.

Doesn't apply to the Vickers as it is a team weapon.

You should read the whole post of Cruzz. It is much more complicated and only certain vets which are tied to weapon Profiles and models are affected. I dont even understand it really by myself which is affected and what not but its certain ly not vet 3 tommies = vet 0 tommies

"snipped blah....its certain ly not vet 3 tommies = vet 0 tommies"

Well, yes it is..

Tommies get -23% received accuracy at Vet2. Hence if you get a squad to vet2, then lose 4 models only the original starting member will have the buff. The other 4 are effectively vet0.

Also the +20% accuracy and -20% cooldown at vet3. Get a squad to vet3, lose 4 models and reinforce. You single original member will have the buff, the other 4 will effectively be vet0 only with the scoped rifles and no way to gain vet at all.

Same with the sappers. -33% received accuracy at Vet3. Not sure about the cover bonus at Vet1, that is likely unaffected.

So.... As I pointed out, might have been in another thread, the only currently useful vet ability is the sapper -50% reinforce.

Read back through this thread and you'll see that I suggested Vickers being a more able build unit early on with the Tommies only coming out later with Bolster and Brens. Also that a force of almost purely engineers makes a lot of sense.

I've been screaming this ever since the Brits release, but:

Regardless of the Veterancy bug, you have to take into account that:

Tommies cannot use their equiped weapons properly when they hit Vet3.

The Scoped Enfields will sometimes displace equiped Brens. Thus you might end up with a 2-model squad that uses none of their Brens. Sometimes, this bug will cause Tommies to drop their weapon (for the enemy), when they shouldn't.

Thus (with the Veterancy bug):
Vet1 Tommies > Vet0 Tommies >>>>>>> Vet3 Tommies

(sight in cover and the scoped enfields are the only thing that stay)

One thing about Tommies is that only one of their weapons upgrades makes any sense.

Brens basically, which are good defensively, though even then double Brens make Vickers a bit pointless as they both do exactly the same thing ( damage and not enough suppression) though are easier to extracate from garrisons.

Mills bombs are pointless, you can't get close enough to a 42 to use them ( unlike all Axis infantry with all their grenades against a Vickers), you can't flank to use them as there is no smoke, and you can't dedicate several squads to flank as they are just too damned expensive and even then crap at close range or on the move. They are quite useful for keeping pios at arms length though whether forcing the pios to move and thus degrading your accuracy against them is wise I'm not sure of.

Piats.. Geez, you can have some fun upgrading to pyro and sticking them in a garrison for the range but you'd better have slept with the RNG gods to get much else out of them. Makes them remarkably similar to a light mortar emplacement, which very rarely hits. Can be a deterrent to armour though.

Attack ground can be effective, but is far more effective with engineers.

Saying that even Brens are more effective on sappers, especially as you can go Anvil for the increased armour. Also Brens give the sappers some long range firepower but are still powerful at knife fighting range due to their stens. Tommies with Brens will melt Volks nicely but don't do too well against the better infantry types.

Hence Tommies just seem to duplicate the capabilities of the Vickers ( if you upgrade them with Brens) with better capping.

Gammon bombs are good against garrisons, but cost an arm and a leg and don't necessarily clear the garrison. The only realistic way to get close to the garrison is to drive past in a UC, which late game is rather a questionable use of resources. Your opponent would have to be asleep to get hit by one. Supposedly they have crits against vehicles though negotiating with said vehicle to stay still for 5 seconds or more ( not just the fuze, they don't exactly throw them instantly), is at best wishful thinking.

The only use I can find for them is building trenches and caches. Using them on the frontline for their intended purpose of staying still in cover just gives every ISG or mortar crew some vet and bleeds your manpower at an unacceptable rate.

FYI, changelog from Mireagefla's mod relating to Tommies..

Infantry Section (Both variants)

Increased range of the artillery flares to make them more useable. Minor adjustment to ensure cost is the same when recrewing weapons. HEAT grenades are now available for Tommies when Mill Bombs are purchased to give Tommies some ability to deter/snare armour and protect 6pdr ATGs against early light armour without the need to lock into AEC. Veterancy adjusted to match the units actual cost.

-Artillery flare range increased from 20 to 35
-Cost properly adjusted so reinforce is the same, even when manning weapon teams
-Fixed a bug where Veterancy 2 modifiers applied only to the entities and not the squad.
-Pyrotechnic Supplies Sight bonus now applies to the squad rather than the entities.
-Scoped Lee Enfield damage from 14 to 16 to match the standard Lee Enfield.
-Veterancy requirements from 480/960/1920 to 560/1120/2240.

Mill Bombs
Mill bombs no longer requires tech to match other grenade that does not come with teching. Grenade now also unlocks HEAT grenades for the standard infantry section.

-HEAT Grenades for the standard Infantry Section are now unlocked when Mill Bombs are purchased.
-Fuel cost from 15 to 20.

All change with the vet working properly...

Tommies are now useful, though still crap at clearing garrisons once they hit Vet2 can be used effectively to attack.

Engineers have to hit Vet3 IIRC correctly for a received accuracy buff, so whilst they are pretty awesome at Vet 3 I'm running into problems building them late game as they don't even scratch the paint against vetted squads, and die so quickly against them that they never get Vet. Seems to be throwing away manpower late game.

I've changed my build order, now going Tommies rather than Vickers early game, using Engineers much for for mine laying and going Vickers in the late game ( ideally crewed with Vet 2 pyro Tommies) to suppress the vetted Axis infantry.

The Bren dropping bug is still there it appears but a bit less annoying, merely because Vet 2 Tommies are more surviveable than they were. Gunfights at high vet though are protracted affairs that easily allow either side to escape, so I'm really feeling the weakness of UKF grenades. . Mills bomb has a tiny area of effect so is easily avoided and the Gammon takes so long to throw and explode as to be a single use weapon against stubborn MG42s in garrisons. Still doesn't always clear them.

Basically you need HE to kill highly vetted squads, especially against OKW. Had some real success with late game pits, mines are no longer optional and even the pyro Tommies calling in the big guns has a use. Chuck the flare on the oppsition cutoff, cap it and retreat a little bit to build a trench. Seemsyou can guarantee a minute or so ( bombardment takes almost a minute) fire does little or nothing to your own squads.

Commandos just aren't really buildable now. Coming late to the party they just suck against vet, and don't get anything remotely useful with vet themselves.

UKF desperately needs a late game heavy tank, the Churchill doesn't come close to cutting it. In fact late game feels like the weakest suit against OKW. You can have a reasonably strong mid game with the AEC but those 5 minutes or so are up your Comet is going to have to take out several Axis tanks to keep you in the game. Shrecked up Volks though are simply ridiculous. Grenadiers even more so.

Late game isn't so bad against Ostheer, though you simply can't go the AEC route as 222s rape and pillage. Anyone found a counter to these?

In fact all of the units that were heavily nerfed due to Axis moaning are now pretty much wasted inventory space. Commandos, Centaur, Churchill in particular. Centaur is a big loss, I'm sure it used to suppress and kill whereas now even individual shreck squads just walk right up to it under a supposed hail of 20mm to take it out.

Guys, i really want to know that is Heavy Engies viable against late game Axis ? I find that Tommies (even with Bren) seem to struggle against MG 42 Obers and Grens blob late game and not to mention they are quite hefty to reinforce

As you said, more than 2 tommies on the field just isn't worth it. I like it that way. Its a similar deal for Ost. Encourages more diverse gameplay and less blobbing.

My build order:
(starting tommy) > Vickers > Tommy > tech > sniper/sapper > Sniper or sapper > ATG > Maybe build bofors or mortar pit or AEC > Cromwell spam.

If the enemy has lots of heavies i get a FF. I always tech hammer for warspeed on cromwells . Cromwell crush FO DAYZ! Thats how i got to rank 3 in 4v4s and 23 for 2v2s. I find getting an early bofors up is crucial against fast 222 spam or AEC + ATG.

I used to love Comets but I usually am able to get the job down with cheaper cromwells which you can afford to dive after Pwerfers and stukas with.

Also, double snipers against 2x OKW is sooo fun but you better be good with sniper micro.

"As you said, more than 2 tommies on the field just isn't worth it."

I'm building more of them now, whilst dropping Brens puts you in a very awkward position if you only equip one and keep a very close eye on your squads you can get away with it. Complete PITA having to retreat a 3 man squad even when winning a firefight of course...

I'm having to build more of them as Vickers are too vulnerable to flame grenades and don't suppress / pin quickly enough, though I am building them in the late game as the only way to keep vetted squads at arms length is to suppress them. Now I come to think of it I generally want 3 Vet 3 Tommy squads with one Bren each so keep building them until that's what I have.

"Also, double snipers against 2x OKW is sooo fun but you better be good with sniper micro."

I've been trying 2 x snipers leading a command vehicle as a last resort to get rid of highly vetted squads. As you say your micro has to be on the dot and hope that not too much is happening elsewhere on the field.

Had some success with sniper + Vickers in a garrison late game though. Expensive, but I swear the Vickers is far more effective.. I mean I know the sniper is but the Vickers seems to vet up very quickly late game when accompanied by a sniper.


"Guys, i really want to know that is Heavy Engies viable against late game Axis ?"

Haven't really tried it that much but I suspect the answer is yes. Will test it in a tadge...