Balance Patch

Ostheer are still weak as hell, pzgren are too expansive/too weak, you just can't beat the russian infatry without enormous micro. The german tanks get buffed, but by the time you reached them, the russ infantry have already pushed you in your base or raped you...

What game are you playing? German Infantry always beat russian, except shock troops. I suppose you mean the hit the dirt+ ppsh doctrine? Just use grenades.

German infantry are inferior, in every respect, to Soviet infantry.

Unless we speak of doctrinal abilities, german infantry need to stay at a distance to fight properly. The gren riflegrenade is too situational and very random (you need their guys to be perfectly bunched and static).

The light mg42 needs to be stationary to fire. Big, big drawback, especially early game.

PzGrens are decent, but are raped 2 out of 3 times by shock troops. I've seen the shock troop frag do more damage than the bundled grenade, not sure if actually true. Shock troops may be doctrinal, but hey: the soviet doctrines worth getting have them. Shrek's are deadly: but for 120 munis, they are NOT worth it. The last thing you want is a shock trooper squad with a shrek.

I like the fact that the game is slower, but I could hardly feel the upkeep at all, I almost never feel short on manpower. I dislike the current system based solely on population, simply because CoH is not about numbers, but army composition. Reducing the pop count for many units does not help.

German infantry are inferior, in every respect, to Soviet infantry.

Unless we speak of doctrinal abilities, german infantry need to stay at a distance to fight properly. The gren riflegrenade is too situational and very random (you need their guys to be perfectly bunched and static).

The light mg42 needs to be stationary to fire. Big, big drawback, especially early game.

PzGrens are decent, but are raped 2 out of 3 times by shock troops. I've seen the shock troop frag do more damage than the bundled grenade, not sure if actually true. Shock troops may be doctrinal, but hey: the soviet doctrines worth getting have them. Shrek's are deadly: but for 120 munis, they are NOT worth it. The last thing you want is a shock trooper squad with a shrek.

I like the fact that the game is slower, but I could hardly feel the upkeep at all, I almost never feel short on manpower. I dislike the current system based solely on population, simply because CoH is not about numbers, but army composition. Reducing the pop count for many units does not help.

Go Jager Inf Doc and get G43 and camo for your Grens, then they rape everything

Very nice
but...

- 222 20mm Autocannon: I try it - still useless against Inf.
Tries so that even a sniper to kill - the required 3 minutes.


- Ostwind Push was needed - very Nice

- P4 command and normal: Nice!

- Brummbär changes: not Tested - but it was as pointless as the Ostwind.

...

I like the fact that the game is slower, but I could hardly feel the upkeep at all, I almost never feel short on manpower. I dislike the current system based solely on population, simply because CoH is not about numbers, but army composition. Reducing the pop count for many units does not help.

After 3 or 4 games last night, I kind of agree with the upkeep/manpower thing. Playing as Soviets, I never had a problem rebuilding Conscript squads as I lost them in the late game. And while rebuilding those squads (and I lost a lot), I never had to wait for more manpower once I had the fuel needed for another t-34 or su-85.

Go Jager Inf Doc and get G43 and camo for your Grens, then they rape everything

Still going to lose against Soviet infantry.

Here's why: Jaeger infantry is munitions heavy. Every single G43 upgrade, costs 60 munitions. Yes, the G43's are VERY good and accurate even at long ranges, but I've noticed you need at least two squad with them to really supplement your flamethrowers or Pzgrens. Thats 120 munitions.

By the time you get your G43's (2CP's), a player using the doctrine with Hit the Dirt, has unlocked Hit the Dirt, Guards and PPSH's. He has, most likely, secured the early game with this fast advantage, and your infantry is lost.

If this argument is not enough, then this one should do the trick: If the soviets *force* you into going G43', simply because their vanilla infantry is superior, you are still at a disadvantage. Shock Troopers will still rape G43's, anyways.

Still going to lose against Soviet infantry.

Here's why: Jaeger infantry is munitions heavy. Every single G43 upgrade, costs 60 munitions. Yes, the G43's are VERY good and accurate even at long ranges, but I've noticed you need at least two squad with them to really supplement your flamethrowers or Pzgrens. Thats 120 munitions.

By the time you get your G43's (2CP's), a player using the doctrine with Hit the Dirt, has unlocked Hit the Dirt, Guards and PPSH's. He has, most likely, secured the early game with this fast advantage, and your infantry is lost.

If this argument is not enough, then this one should do the trick: If the soviets *force* you into going G43', simply because their vanilla infantry is superior, you are still at a disadvantage. Shock Troopers will still rape G43's, anyways.

God thank you its exactly that i want to mean. Russians force you to get special upgrades for only 1v1 them and when you spent all your efforts on the infantry to survive : boom T34. You cant spend all your ressources on inf while fast tech for stugs. Dont talk me about schrecks : you spent all your munis on g43 at the same time (2cp 5-6th min = first t34) and the pak is easily decrewed by sniperS (!) wich you cant counter with reco car if hé knows how to plant a unit between his sniper and you or with your Alone sniper (enough said). Its a cornelian choice between dying by infantry spam or by guards + mines spam and mega mortar.

Can maybe try allocating muni use for mines instead of weapon upgrades.

Not much of an alternative, but one worth attempting atleast till doctrines get moee attention.

Shrek cripples PGren for AP. Better off relying on Fausts and keeping PGrens AP capable.

LMG is "good", but cost is a bit high. 1 is sufficient.
As has been pointed out, g34s come a bit too late to have impact.

MG upgrades on Ostheer armor could all use a buff.

The German halftrack should have had its speed and damage (slightly) decreased instead of its survivability. Killing off squads while they retreat is lame (same for M3).
Plus the nerf also affects the vanilla halftrack that really didn't need to be changed.

They could even make the speed penalty specific to the upgraded HT. After all it is now carrying tons of flamethrower fuel.

i cant explain it but germans seem alot better now. i find my self having to tech t4 all the time to deal with the armour. ostwinds that didnt get change rape everything in the soviet army except the su85, they can take 4 shots from a zis and still keep going giving it plenty of time to run past it and kill it.

panzers come alot quicker and the t34 just wont cut it.

what is the role of the t34? it is too expensive to tech t3 and t4 uintill late late game and soviets NEED the tank destroyer or they can not deal with enemy armour.

What's the deal with the upkeep from 4 to 1.5? Was it always like that since open beta began?

I think that is a big big change.. (and pop per unit seems lower all around too). Going to make it harder to come back and we'll see more unit spam all around.

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Also I'd say Soviet T3 got a huge nerf relative to German T3 because T34 is now 20 fuel more, whereas Panzer IV is ridiculously better now as is the Ostwind and both their prices decreased.

What's the deal with the upkeep from 4 to 1.5? Was it always like that since open beta began?

I think that is a big big change.. (and pop per unit seems lower all around too). Going to make it harder to come back and we'll see more unit spam all around.

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Also I'd say Soviet T3 got a huge nerf relative to German T3 because T34 is now 20 fuel more, whereas Panzer IV is ridiculously better now as is the Ostwind and both their prices decreased.

The point of changing the upkeep is so that people who preserve their units properly don't get crippled by a +99 income compared with one guy who doesn't, still keeps their +300 income and spams tanks while the good player can only reinforce squads.

@Crells: It seems to me that if Sov is teching properlly, he should have Su85s round about the time Ostheer has a Ostwind/PIV.

This will ofc be delayed if you choose to go t34 route, which will net you a tank earlier than Ostheer can put one out, for a few minutes advantage.

TLDR: Either t34 earlier than Ost has armor, or Su85 about the same time that he does.

Well - I'd say it's now OP Russians - just by the swing in % of players you see wanting to play as Russians now - before it was 75% Germans 25% - now its maybe 40/60.

I just started playing Russians yest - unbeaten so far - they're really too overpowering with that AT nade ability and then a pack of T34's just mowing things down.

Though the Panzer IV spam now is a bit ridiculous also.

The scout car seriously needs attention - it's a joke right now.

The point of changing the upkeep is so that people who preserve their units properly don't get crippled by a +99 income compared with one guy who doesn't, still keeps their +300 income and spams tanks while the good player can only reinforce squads.

True true. I can also look at it this way though: once you are down, it becomes even harder to come back.

If you ask me though, I think the VP tick rate is too low when you're controlling only 2/3rds of them. It's really hard to control all 3 on maps like Pripyat even if you're winning pretty much every engagement.

Well - I'd say it's now OP Russians - just by the swing in % of players you see wanting to play as Russians now - before it was 75% Germans 25% - now its maybe 40/60.

I just started playing Russians yest - unbeaten so far - they're really too overpowering with that AT nade ability and then a pack of T34's just mowing things down.

Though the Panzer IV spam now is a bit ridiculous also.

The scout car seriously needs attention - it's a joke right now.

What makes the Soviets OP here? I've been playing as only Germans since this patch and won every single battle. If anything, the German T3 is amazing now compared to before where it was nearly useless.

The nerf of the panzershrek's range and soviet equivalent makes tanks even more useful.

Ya I agree with this patch it didn't make russians op lol if anything it buffed germans t3 so much. Right now I feel russians have the advantage t0-t2 only rough part is halftrack but can be dealt with. Germans have complete advantage in t3 where i feel t4 it evens out just opinion though. Atm none of our t3 can match up against the p4 and with its damage increased by double with this patch it kills infantry pretty fast as well now. Feels like the only option is to go t4 as fast as possible with russians atm.

I think we have to remember that people are playing and talking about different match ups. I haven't played much 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 since patch so I can't speak of any issues in regards to those games.

What I do know, however, is that in all of my 1v1 matches since, I have had the exact same problem as Ostheer as mentioned before. I.e. Heavy micro required early game to preserve grens, being forced to go Jagerinf doc for G43/camo. When the T34's hit the field I've already expended at least 60 munitions for grenades/flamethrower to root Russ out from his "hit the dirt", a free ability and grens won't be able to faust as much for the PaK guns to hit and kill the T34. The T34's nice armor buff doesn't help either as it can now sit in front of a PaK for a good deal longer as the mass of Russ inf attempt to flank(similar to StuG pre-patch).

Due to my early game slight disadvantage and being forced to go Jager Inf, by the time my lauded Pz4 comes around, the Russ player already either has a second T34 or more. As many Russ players know, any two T34's can now easily knock out or disable ANY German tank quite easily with a ram. PaK guns can't do much to deter this anymore since the Ostheer player will be sorely lacking on AT once the Pz4, an AT Tank gets its gun destroyed and now the surviving T34 is free to rape and pillage even with a damaged engine from a faust.

Peoole should state what game mode they are talking about, whether its 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3+.

True true. I can also look at it this way though: once you are down, it becomes even harder to come back.

Isn't that what a game is supposed to be like? The winning party of the game should definitely have an advantage, but the losing party can only get back if either a) they play really well or b) the winning party throws it away.

Bringing it to a situation where one side can only reinforce whereas another side gets to spam tanks does not show either.

Believe me, during closed beta. I had a game where my Panzergrenadiers by the end of the game hit 3000% MP efficiency. Needless to say, I lost because guess what? The other side started spamming tanks whereas I could only reinforce my infantry squads. Yes it was a 2v2, yes my ally didn't build AT well but you get the idea. Given 5 tanks vs 5 infantry squads, the tanks always wins.

I think it is a thin edge between making comebacks possible and making them too easy. In other strategy games, comebacks aren't really possible and once you lost one engagement it is pretty much GG.

What I liked before was the upkeep-free limit of 25 popcap. It rewarded you for staying below or roughly at it until the end of early game for enabling a stronger midgame. It also made comebacks possible after you lost pretty much everything.
I'd like to see that return but the current upkeep system is fine too and probably more straightforward to understand for new players.