Ostheer Sniper ROF

My dilemma is basically this guys: Why is it OK for the ostheer sniper to inflict a higher bleed than the Soviet sniper, when both shoot at 4-6 man squads and cost the same.

People say that not every unit is viable against all factions. (I would agree citing the usf LT tier, soviet sniper, 222, etc.). So why should the Ostheer sniper retain usability vs. 6 man squads while the soviet sniper is really only good for 4? Shouldn't having 6 models make you more resilient to snipers?

If the reasoning is that the ostheer sniper should be good vs. All factions, then shouldn't that logic lead directly to a ROF buff for the soviet sniper so it can fight okw large squads more easily?

The Soviet Sniper inflicts fairly huge bleed on OKW and Ostheer alike unless you use the only 2 6 men Axis squads in the game; Fuss and Ostruppen. The issue your dealing with is Relic's dumb idea to make USF and OKW a mix of 4-5 men squads rather than making them all 5 men.

Brits don't have this issue, they go from 4 men on all squads to 5 men on all squads without an inconsistencies or exceptions. Even being able to put out some 6 men squads in the commanders.

The Ostheer sniper isn't just rare against Soviets because of the squad size, it's rare because of the fact Soviet light vehicles hit the game insanely early and they can just negate your purchase through countersniping as well.

TLDR: Soviet sniper bleeds OKW and Ostheer.

Mg to counter a sniper? Link me a contact to your supplier.

Vickers when in buildings get a massive range and cone of fire bonus.

Dude, a normal, awake player would not lose a sniper, to a HMG.

A normal awake player won't normally lose snipers to anything, but you can still keep him away from your shit.

You can also get multiple Soviet snipers and still hold the field as Soviets. Something you cannot accomplish with Ostheer.

Just pointing out that your "No" vote is a banner for Fanboyism.

But for the poll itself, small RoF nerf is needed, not versus russian though but versus USF and UKF it is definitely needed.

putting smth like ass grens in germ T1 instead of sniper would be very good for balance.
Snipers can be in T3 for both factions. It will also remove its absurd 40+ kills per game.

Now germ sniper have no killer for it at all at any stage of the game.
It cannot be killed by mortar katy. If 6 men squad is firing at it he just doesnt care.

Whaaaaat...?

The Soviet Sniper inflicts fairly huge bleed on OKW and Ostheer alike unless you use the only 2 6 men Axis squads in the game; Fuss and Ostruppen. The issue your dealing with is Relic's dumb idea to make USF and OKW a mix of 4-5 men squads rather than making them all 5 men.

OK, so by your own admission the soviet sniper can bleed 5 man squads fairly well. So why can't the ostheer sniper make do with that same low rof? Soviet 6 man squads should be more resilient to snipers because it makes sense. You would still be able to bleed guards and shocks due to high reinforcement cost per model.

You still haven't answered why the ostheer sniper has to be useful against all the allied armys, whilst the soviet sniper has a hard time bleeding volks.

Brits don't have this issue, they go from 4 men on all squads to 5 men on all squads without an inconsistencies or exceptions. Even being able to put out some 6 men squads in the commanders.

Squad size is only a small part of the issue. Each British infantry model costs 35 mp to reinforce. That is 5 more than a Gren squad. Even after researching 5 man squads (which delays tech and hard counters), the brits would still be bleeding at the same rate. They can just stay on the field slightly longer.

And please directly respond to these points instead of saying "but vickers." That's like saying the old M15 was fine because incindiary rounds.

You still haven't answered why the ostheer sniper has to be useful against all the allied armys, whilst the soviet sniper has a hard time bleeding volks.

It doesn't, and Volks are the only 5 man infantry squad for OKW.

You can also get multiple Soviet snipers and still hold the field as Soviets. Something you cannot accomplish with Ostheer.

I said this for a reason, you cannot afford multiple Ost snipers, you can afford multiple Soviet snipers. This allows you to burst down a squad forcing it to retreat instantly. Like on a 4 man squad you lose half your strength in literally 1 volley to 2 soviet snipers.

Squad size is only a small part of the issue. Each British infantry model costs 35 mp to reinforce. That is 5 more than a Gren squad. Even after researching 5 man squads (which delays tech and hard counters), the brits would still be bleeding at the same rate. They can just stay on the field slightly longer.

God help us if there isn't a faction entirely based around spamming 1 basic unit.

The solution to the Sniper problem for Brits to it offer better counters, not to nerf the Ostheer sniper back into obscurity.

God help us if there isn't a faction entirely based around spamming 1 basic unit. As Brits it's perfectly viable to go for a MG as your first unit (like Ost). Stick it in a building and there will be fuckall that sniper can do to you.

Also again, put an LMG on your Bren carrier.

Yeah... you're playing OKW, so I'm not surprised the idea of tremendous bleed in a extremely menpower heavy army is an unimaginable concept for you, so I'm not even going to argue with "virgin talking about sex".

I said this for a reason, you cannot afford multiple Ost snipers, you can afford multiple Soviet snipers. This allows you to burst down a squad forcing it to retreat instantly. Like on a 4 man squad you lose half your strength in literally 1 volley to 2 soviet snipers.

WHY

NOT?

2-3 Snipers, Gren/Ostruppen, 222, get both fuel, Brit is dead.

It is not possible in COH1 because Bren in Bren, and Bren no longer a clown car in COH2.

Yeah... you're playing OKW, so I'm not surprised the idea of tremendous bleed in a extremely menpower heavy army is an unimaginable concept for you, so I'm not even going to argue with "virgin talking about sex".

I play Ostheer a lot to, you could just check my playercard to see that. And I never float MP as OKW either so lol.

WHY

NOT?

2-3 Snipers, Gren/Ostruppen, 222, Brit is dead.

What are you going to do once his Scout Car hit's the field, or he uses garrisons. I'm not saying it won't be a problem, but acting like we need to preempt it with a nerf is silly. Like there is no rule they couldn't just hotfix a target table on to IS that made them like 15% harder to hit with Ostheer snipers.

The solution to the Sniper problem for Brits to it offer better counters, not to nerf the Ostheer sniper back into obscurity.

Defend it all you want,the unit is getting nerfed for the reasons below..
1)durability
2)rate of fire

it cant have both,either durability must be nerfed or RoF,right now this sniper outperforms the soviet one for the same cost

I said this for a reason, you cannot afford multiple Ost snipers, you can afford multiple Soviet snipers. This allows you to burst down a squad forcing it to retreat instantly. Like on a 4 man squad you lose half your strength in literally 1 volley to 2 soviet snipers.

What kind of logic is that? Because as a faction you cannot afford to build more than one of a single unit, said unit should be more cost effective with the same cost than a single unit of the enemies?

Does that mean that the KT should be a baneblade, since the faction itself can't afford to spam it? Of course not. Unit prices have a direct effect on unit power. The only other factor is timing, and the ostheer sniper is in your first tier so it is a nonfactor.

Also, I don't really see how you can't afford 2 ostheer snipers. UKF doesn't have a clown car, so the only at you will need for a while is fausts. 2 snipers is an easy build for Ostheer vs. Brits, since the brits won't have nearly as many squads as you do.

God help us if there isn't a faction entirely based around spamming 1 basic unit.

Ok, so if brits should just deal with the ostheer sniper, why doesn't ostheer just deal with a buffed soviet sniper? After all, they have mortars.

You don't really have an argument here. You keep going back to "but combined arms", which also applies to every other thing you say is op for allies (m5, etc.). Those units are obviously overperforming for cost, as is the ostheer sniper. Here, let me state one last time one of the integral rules of balance. I'll even bold it so I never have to say it again in any thread ever: The existance of counters does not mean a unit is balanced. It only means that it is somewhat possible to deal with it.

I play Ostheer a lot to, you could just check my playercard to see that. And I never float MP as OKW either so lol.



1. What are you going to do once his Scout Car hit's the field, 2. or he uses garrisons. I'm not saying it won't be a problem, but acting like we need to preempt it with a nerf is silly. Like there is no rule they couldn't just hotfix a target table on to IS that made them like 15% harder to hit with Ostheer snipers.

1. AEC is just like a Puma, who cares a Puma while you have Pak and tellers?
2. Just snipe, period.

A single bullet means Brit lose 35 manpower and lose 10 seconds waiting in base. Two snipers means a brand new Tommies squad is useless and forced to retreat at contact time = 0 second.

Sorry, dude. It is not funny.
That plasma trench doesn't save you from snipers.

Ok, so if brits should just deal with the ostheer sniper, why doesn't ostheer just deal with a buffed soviet sniper? After all, they have mortars.

You don't really have an argument here. You keep going back to "but combined arms", which also applies to every other thing you say is op for allies (m5, etc.). Those units are obviously overperforming for cost, as is the ostheer sniper. Here, let me state one last time one of the integral rules of balance. I'll even bold it so I never have to say it again in any thread ever: The existant of counters does not mean a unit is balanced. It only means that it is somewhat possible to deal with it.

Except I didn't say they should just deal with it, I said that it's a problem that is better fixed by giving the player more tools to deal with it, not by making it harder to use in general. Alternatively you could just add target tables.

But lol at comparing the M5 to a countering problem. The M5 is a problem because it's over preforming for cost AND it has very little in the way of reliable counters because it can kill AT gun's insanely quickly and smash Flak HT's and 222's.

1. AEC is just like a Puma, who cares a Puma while you have Pak and tellers?

What?

2. Just snipe, period.

You can't snipe British garrison structures.

What kind of logic is that? Because as a faction you cannot afford to build more than one of a single unit, said unit should be more cost effective with the same cost than a single unit of the enemies?

No my point is that if you have 2 Soviet snipers you can literally force your enemy to retreat with 1 click due to the nature of 4 mans squads.

Does that mean that the KT should be a baneblade, since the faction itself can't afford to spam it? Of course not. Unit prices have a direct effect on unit power. The only other factor is toming, and the ostheer sniper is in your first tier so it is a nonfactor.

Snipers largest draw back is reduction in map presence, as well as for Ostheer a big push back in teching time.

You could also implement a mechanic were the smaller the squad is the much easier chance the sniper has of missing it, so say yeah your IS loses 2 guys but it becomes really fucking hard for your Sniper to actually hit those 2 guys.

It would make sniper play a lot less frustrating in general IMO.

WHY

NOT?

2-3 Snipers, Gren/Ostruppen, 222, get both fuel, Brit is dead.

It is not possible in COH1 because Bren in Bren, and Bren no longer a clown car in COH2.

Universal Carrier spam

>> You can't snipe British garrison structures.

What the fack?
Well, I am not sure about if you can snipe the guys in the mortar pit / Bofors / 17 Pounders, you cannot get them in early game anyway, but I am 100% sure, Trench and civilian buildings doesn't work.

>> AEC

Yep, it is just a Puma copy.

No doubt that the Ost sniper will receive some sort of RoF adjustment/nerf post-British release. Maybe even a cloak time increase too. It was blatantly OP in the alpha, and I rarely use OP to describe anything (well apart from ye olde TA days).

Saying that the Soviet sniper causes a huge MP bleed against OKW is BS. Early on they are only useful for reducing the effectiveness of Sturms but that's it really. I've tried using snipers against OKW a few times, and they did fuck all really. Much more effective against Ost as they force them to tech T2 sooner than usual and rush a 222, which is easily read and countered.

Now I never tried going double snipers vs Brits as Ost. But using Osttruppen as a screen for a sniper, who also can bumrush a UC with fausts with T1 built, was too effective.

They intentionally made the garrison structures impossible to build due to cost because literally nobody was using anything but them and it was hurting testing. They will be decently affordable come live.

The Brit Trench actually stopped things in it from being sniped due to the insanely reduced chance of hitting things in it. Although it was so fucking buggy in general that they have hopefully ironed that out....

Saying that the Soviet sniper causes a huge MP bleed against OKW is BS. Early on they are only useful for reducing the effectiveness of Sturms but that's it really. I've tried using snipers against OKW a few times, and they did fuck all really.

Every dead Sturm is worth more than 1 dead Gren, also 1 dead Ober is worth 2 dead Grens. The idea that Soviet snipers are useless versus OKW outside of Fuss spam is just funny.

They intentionally made the garrison structures impossible to build due to cost because literally nobody was using anything but them and it was hurting testing. They will be decently affordable come live.

The Brit Trench actually stopped things in it from being sniped due to the insanely reduced chance of hitting things in it. Although it was so fucking buggy in general that they have hopefully ironed that out....



Every dead Sturm is worth more than 1 dead Gren, also 1 dead Ober is worth 2 dead Grens. The idea that Soviet snipers are useless versus OKW outside of Fuss spam is just funny.

Sure but it's not like the sniper is just shooting at Sturms or Obers the entire time is it? By the time Obers are available the Luchs is too. Go figure. Even a Puma is a hard counter for the Soviet Sniper with its coax MG.

Shooting at the most numerous OKW infantry, Volks, is pointless. It causes no bleed whatsoever basically. Falls get the jump on them from building spawning and Obers w/MG34 mow them down easily. Fussies just laugh any sniper off the field. Trust me, as an avid user of T1, snipers are pointless against OKW. You're much better off building a squad of Penals rather than a sniper...

Little did people remember that the Wasp upgrade required T1 researched to upgrade it, and it still required 90 muni. A point where you already have the counter, but its been enough time to be kept off of vital points giving you resources...

And something as crummy as a standard UC isnt very good at driving around trying to push out a cloaked sniper, especially with its pathing. I had a laugh when it resorted to that to try to find it since all the infantry before it were forced back to base to reinforce.