ML-20 152mm Howitzer

Let me start off by saying that I'm a fairly terrible player but I've come up against this unit in 1v1's and 2v2's and for one reason or another I need to retreat two or more infantry units. My Soviet opponent see's this and launches this barrage right into my base.

I find it just a bit ridiculous that a base unit can fire directly upon my base and wipe 2-3 squads easily. Anyone else feel this is a bit ridiculous or am I alone and should I just L2P?

Cheers.

try to counter it with stuka

with okw u are kinda fucked

Your not alone. Every game Iv lost since the new patch (except for 1 or 2) has been due to getting stuck with double OKW or an Ostheer player who lacked a howitzer counter

Yeah, had the same problem already, especially with Okw since your buildings are just getting destroyed by the arty. On top of that you loose sturmpioneers while repairing or retreated units because the enemy is shooting at your base. On some maps you just can't do anything against it as okw.
But i don't know a solution for that problem, we could nerf the howizers back into the hole they came from but that would make them completely useless. The other option would be making the basesectors impossible to barrage with arty, but i don't know if that would be a good idea.

-Its price is its counter, you can field 2 squads with that much mp, use that to your advantage.
-If he has the luxury of keeping his arty until you retreat, then you're not pressuring adequately.
-If you are getting a hard time against (this) arty, hold off your commander pick until you see what your opponent picked, so you can counter-pick. It might be 'annoying' to not be able to 'play what you want any time you want' but this is a pvp game, it's not scripted.

I think one way to deal with this is either make barrages stop when LOS is lost (therefore, keeping sight of a target is key), or howitzer emplacements require you to first have LOS in order to start a barrage. At least that way, the only time they can attack your base is if they rush a clown car or T-34 within line of sight and order the barrage. Still a half-solution though.

If you REALLY want a more thought out complex solution, it's to have emplacements not be able to fire by themselves at all, and instead once you get an emplacement built, all/ nearly all of your units have a Target Barrage ability that orders all howitzers to fire on the area, regardless of range. The ability has global cooldown, so you can't just barrage and then select another unit to continue.

-Its price is its counter, you can field 2 squads with that much mp, use that to your advantage.
-If he has the luxury of keeping his arty until you retreat, then you're not pressuring adequately.
-If you are getting a hard time against (this) arty, hold off your commander pick until you see what your opponent picked, so you can counter-pick. It might be 'annoying' to not be able to 'play what you want any time you want' but this is a pvp game, it's not scripted.

To bad there is no OKW commander with a reliable counter

-Its price is its counter, you can field 2 squads with that much mp, use that to your advantage.
-If he has the luxury of keeping his arty until you retreat, then you're not pressuring adequately.
-If you are getting a hard time against (this) arty, hold off your commander pick until you see what your opponent picked, so you can counter-pick. It might be 'annoying' to not be able to 'play what you want any time you want' but this is a pvp game, it's not scripted.

1. It doesn't make sense to build 2 more Infantry Units, like 2 Volks for example if the're going to be blown up by the arty anyways and you are going to bleed masses of MP with having useless Infantry units.
2. You can't pressure an good allied player that much that he's going to waste his arty on something completely useless.
3. Alex already wrote it, there's no counter for arty in the OKW doctrines. It seems to me like you aren't playing okw that much, do you?

Yoy know LeFH can do same thing?

Howitzers are finally useful, which is OK.
Sov and USF have counter against leFH; Ost has counter agasint ML-20, B4.

Only OKW lacks something. Best option is to strike with stuka (unrepaired will be destroyed with second strike).

So it's not about nefring howies but it's about givig OKW something to deal with.

To bad there is no OKW commander with a reliable counter

You can try to get panzer commander from Elite Armor Doc for example on Pz4 and call in barrage from it. But also remember about sweepers.

-Its price is its counter, you can field 2 squads with that much mp, use that to your advantage.
-If he has the luxury of keeping his arty until you retreat, then you're not pressuring adequately.
-If you are getting a hard time against (this) arty, hold off your commander pick until you see what your opponent picked, so you can counter-pick. It might be 'annoying' to not be able to 'play what you want any time you want' but this is a pvp game, it's not scripted.

I don't generally base rush to see what base structures my opponent has and most of the time the first salvo is enough to take out a considerable amount of my units.

I don't mind constructive criticism but I'm not an idiot. I know it's pvp. I was just bringing up the point that base arty that can fire on your base seems a bit ridiculous.

Yoy know LeFH can do same thing?

Howitzers are finally useful, which is OK.
Sov and USF have counter against leFH; Ost has counter agasint ML-20, B4.

Only OKW lacks something. Best option is to strike with stuka (unrepaired will be destroyed with second strike).

So it's not about nefring howies but it's about givig OKW something to deal with.

The LeFH has little over half the damage of the ML-20 while only firing slightly more shells and having the same exact accuracy and cost. Comparing the two is really dumb because the LeFH does less AoE damage while shooting at larger squads while the ML-20 has much higher AoE while shooting at much smaller squads.

OKW can't really afford something that only decrews the gun, it needs something that will 100% destroy the gun. Remember OKW can't afford to just throw around munitions in a competitive game and any call in ability to counter it won't be able to be spammed simply due to that fact.

You can try to get panzer commander from Elite Armor Doc for example on Pz4 and call in barrage from it. But also remember about sweepers.

Iv had it actually kill the crew and gun once, out of trying it 9 times. Most of the time I just go scavenge versus arty shitters and pray for deliverance.

The LeFH has little over half the damage of the ML-20 while only firing slightly more shells and having the same exact accuracy and cost. Comparing the two is really dumb because the LeFH does less AoE damage while shooting at larger squads while the ML-20 has much higher AoE while shooting at much smaller squads.

LeFH cooldown starts with the first shell, ML-20 with the last, which means LeFH has much shorter cooldown and your saturation is much greater.
Checking only damage and shell number gives extremely misleading performance view.

there's no winning with you dopes is there?

people bitching about the SU-76 and howitzers now that they are FINALLY useful after 2+ years or being garbage?

LOL

LeFH cooldown starts with the first shell, ML-20 with the last, which means LeFH has much shorter cooldown and your saturation is much greater.
Checking only damage and shell number gives extremely misleading performance view.

Who cares? Allies don't make use of large amounts of defensive positions (almost all allied defensive abilities revolve around area denial using explosives instead of actual bunkers or troops) so large amounts of saturation is meaning less because the enemy will just move all their shit away after the first few shells hit.

The LeFH can shoot a lot! But that's useless unless there is actually shit to shoot at! Either the ML-20 needs to be brought down to the level of the LeFH or the LeFH needs some distinct advantage that matters like being cheaper to make.

there's no winning with you dopes is there?

people bitching about the SU-76 and howitzers now that they are FINALLY useful after 2+ years or being garbage?

LOL

le bitter faenboeh faec :^)

Who cares?

Certainly not the fanboys looking for supremacy of every single axis unit over allied ones, even if its against the common sense and logic.

Allies don't make use of large amounts of defensive positions (almost all allied defensive abilities revolve around area denial using explosives instead of actual bunkers or troops) so large amounts of saturation is meaning less because the enemy will just move all their shit away after the first few shells hit.

But they need to cap points like any other army and use bases you can bombard 24/7 with LeFH for free squad wipes.

The LeFH can shoot a lot! But that's useless unless there is actually shit to shoot at! Either the ML-20 needs to be brought down to the level of the LeFH or the LeFH needs some distinct advantage that matters like being cheaper to make.

Base saturation, denial on critical points, allies still use weapon teams and defend positions, which arty can clear/scare off just fine.

Why would it need a distinct advantage? As I've said, not everything made by germans was superior. Its asymmetrical balancing when axis units are weaker too, it doesn't apply exclusively to allied weaker units.

le bitter faenboeh faec :^)

And I'm Katitof, pleased to meet you mr Bitter.

Certainly not the fanboys looking for supremacy of every single axis unit over allied ones, even if its against the common sense and logic.

lol

But they need to cap points like any other army and use bases you can bombard 24/7 with LeFH for free squad wipes.

and you will do half as much damage to those infantry and bases because the LeFH does less damage. you can handwring about the cooldown all you want but the ML-20 has a lot more targets to shoot at and they are all much easier to wipe.

Base saturation, denial on critical points, allies still use weapon teams and defend positions, which arty can clear/scare off just fine.

So the LeFH is only for area denial? Uh, I can do that a lot cheaper than 600 manpower. Yes it's good for breaking up campy players but it pales in comparison to the destructive power of the ML-20.

Why would it need a distinct advantage? As I've said, not everything made by germans was superior. Its asymmetrical balancing when axis units are weaker too, it doesn't apply exclusively to allied weaker units.

This argument had been pretty dead in the water since they buffed Soviet stock army. What units Axis has that are better are better because they cost more to make.

"Shut up and deal with it being worse" is not an argument.

and you will do half as much damage to those infantry and bases because the LeFH does less damage. you can handwring about the cooldown all you want but the ML-20 has a lot more targets to shoot at and they are all much easier to wipe.

All those 300hp/entity allied infantry will now survive when axis one will be dead!

So the LeFH is only for area denial? Uh, I can do that a lot cheaper than 600 manpower. Yes it's good for breaking up campy players but it pales in comparison to the destructive power of the ML-20.

Area denial is one of the roles of arty. It does it well.
And as I've said, not everything on axis side muse be superior to allied counterpart.

This argument had been pretty dead in the water since they buffed Soviet stock army. What units Axis has that are better are better because they cost more to make.

"Shut up and deal with it being worse" is not an argument.

They brought up in line one unit, buffed 2 lights and reduced cost of of one med tank.

Thats not a buff of stock army, since most of that stock army is still well behind axis counterparts.
Snipers, main ingantry, AT gun, mortars, all of that is inferior. Though seeing that inferior allied counterparts may indeed spoil you and make you feel entitled for all axis units being superior. Well, they are not. Axis have better units that can fight directly, soviets have better indirect fire, excluding mortars.

Again, asymmetrical balance, deal with it.

there's no winning with you dopes is there?

people bitching about the SU-76 and howitzers now that they are FINALLY useful after 2+ years or being garbage?

LOL

I don't mind the fact that it works. That's not what I'm complaining about. On maps like crossing in the woods the howitzers can fire on anything within your base or anything on the map. That's the only issue I have.

All those 300hp/entity allied infantry will now survive when axis one will be dead!

What are you trying to say here.

Area denial is one of the roles of arty. It does it well.
And as I've said, not everything on axis side muse be superior to allied counterpart.

How about them just being equal? The LeFH's positives do not outweigh the ML-20's positives. If they are going to cost them same, take up the same pop cap they need to be similar in performance. If think something costing the same and being objectively worse is okay then well just lol

They brought up in line one unit, buffed 2 lights and reduced cost of of one med tank.

And that's what it took to give Soviets a good stock army minus like 1 or 2 units.

Thats not a buff of stock army, since most of that stock army is still well behind axis counterparts.
Snipers, main ingantry, AT gun, mortars, all of that is inferior. Though seeing that inferior allied counterparts may indeed spoil you and make you feel entitled for all axis units being superior. Well, they are not. Axis have better units that can fight directly, soviets have better indirect fire, excluding mortars.

???

The SU-76 costs less than the StuG III but has better pen and range, Ostheer doesn't even have a TD with 60 range. Soviet light vehicles SHRED Axis light vehicles. Soviet snipers have a reduced ROF because they are shooting at smaller squads and Soviet infantry is very very much not inferior to Axis infantry. Ostheer doesn't even HAVE elite infantry and cons outperform Volks till vet 3 and OKW doesn't even have a mortar.

Stop trying to excuse shitty things NOW with old irrelevant arguments. Sorry but Relic heeded your cries and made Soviets have a good stock army now, you can stop whining (and maybe if you do you will get much better at the game!).