SU-76 issues

so you want the soviets to go T4??do you know why soviets dont go T4???
First its the T3 building REQUIERMENT
Second its the awful units you get when you build it(just builded my latest tier stock building to get a T34-76 when panthers roam the field )
the su-85 has the same penetration as a ZIS-3 gun,its inaccurate at long range and costs alot to field
the the only worthwile unit you get are katyushas but then why bother with them

if the issue is T4 then buff those units and make them better and then you will see more people going T4,nerfing the su-76 will kill T1 and also make the su-76 useless BUT if you buff T4 people will see a reason going T4 in the first place.

just to understand how bad the units are in T4
T34-76(300 mp fuel 80)is barely better then a puma(320mp 70fuel)
the su-85(340mp fuel 120) has the same penetration as a ZIS-3 so why bring it in the first place??why spent so much MP and fuel to bring an su-85 when you can bring 3-4 lesser su-76 that give you more options and have the same performance as a su-85 at penetration.

if you play soviets you will see that half of the units you get are awful and they are just a waste of resources.

To be honest, they are only awful if you can't handle playing them. I still just keep noticing how everyone basically bitches and keep implying that the lesser and much cheaper soviet vehicles should outperform or be equivalent to the more expensive and better performance german counterpart. Even if they are already very cost efficient. Like the Su76, or m5, or even the t34/76. Cheap as chips vehicles should only get so good. Su85s shouldn't be effortlessly autopenning panthers and tigers on top of only being 120-125 fuel with high dps and 60 range. It just simply doesn't make sense.

If you can't handle allies go play axis if its just so laughably easy.

just to understand how bad the units are in T4
T34-76(300 mp fuel 80)is barely better then a puma(320mp 70fuel)
the su-85(340mp fuel 120) has the same penetration as a ZIS-3 so why bring it in the first place??why spent so much MP and fuel to bring an su-85 when you can bring 3-4 lesser su-76 that give you more options and have the same performance as a su-85 at penetration.

1. Puma's an anti-armour vehicle. Even then, unless the Puma kites which lowers accuracy and increases the chance it will deflect, T-34 is a cheap generalist(?) tank which generally uses its treads as a weapon and can meatshield for all those assault guns and TDs it can be bought alongside with now.

2. SU-85 has ROF, self-sight and generally performs well against true heavies, just not blitzing Panthers(but what does?). Boost its accuracy and its mobility and it still probably wouldn't be fine as the SU-76 still would be out more output via numbers unless you lost a few early on as they can pen heavy armour just as well, which should be the SU-85s role. To deal with heavies/medium heavies.

Also how will nerfing the SU-76 make it useless if say, the penetration was just adjusted? Even if it was dropped to something like 180/160/150-140 it would still counter the majority of mediums, even at range and be a cheap support platform that can do many things. And you still have that very fast rate of fire you help put shots into armour.

Also, only time T-34/76/85s will be facing Panthers is against OKW who can actually rush them out around the 15 minute mark or so unless you're in the larger game modes where balance is already tosed out the window by the income.

@Nabarox

It's clear from your posts from cherry picking history that you have idea nor intent to know anything about balance. Frankly you're contributing nothing apart from reaffirming my points really.

Please gain life skills like discussing with ppl and learning how to argue and come back when you're done.

Not OP,relic can back su76 to T4

The SU-76 was UP when it was in the old T4 with its old stats.

It was fine in the old T4 with its new stats but it's too good in the new T3 with its new stats.

Reduce its penetration a bit and be done with it.


(The same applies to the M5. It got stats buffs AND a timing buff. Now, it's OP. I'm pretty sure that the M5 would be fine if the stats buffs it received got reverted.

Same goes for Obers. LMG34 damage reduction AND upgrade cost introduced.)

Conclusion: No double nerfs/buffs, relic

Small and frequent steps will lead to balance.

1. Puma's an anti-armour vehicle. Even then, unless the Puma kites which lowers accuracy and increases the chance it will deflect, T-34 is a cheap generalist(?) tank which generally uses its treads as a weapon and can meatshield for all those assault guns and TDs it can be bought alongside with now.

2. SU-85 has ROF, self-sight and generally performs well against true heavies, just not blitzing Panthers(but what does?). Boost its accuracy and its mobility and it still probably wouldn't be fine as the SU-76 still would be out more output via numbers unless you lost a few early on as they can pen heavy armour just as well, which should be the SU-85s role. To deal with heavies/medium heavies.

Also how will nerfing the SU-76 make it useless if say, the penetration was just adjusted? Even if it was dropped to something like 180/160/150-140 it would still counter the majority of mediums, even at range and be a cheap support platform that can do many things. And you still have that very fast rate of fire you help put shots into armour.

Also, only time T-34/76/85s will be facing Panthers is against OKW who can actually rush them out around the 15 minute mark or so unless you're in the larger game modes where balance is already tosed out the window by the income.

sorry it will only kill anything that isnt a vetted panzer 4 or a panther.
ever used the AT gun of the americans?if you find that AT gun fine against panthers you clearly dont understand how awful of an idea it is to nerf penetration.

the t34-76 is useless,you might as well make it free.

the su-85s self spot is nice IF IT COULD HIT AT LONG RANGE and the penetration is awful against panthers(honestly why are panthers NON doctrinal anyways??)

And what's wrong with the SU-76 being a counter to medium tanks and light vehicles while being able to harass heavy tanks with rate of fire and range? It would still be able to fight heavies just via numbers alone.

Also 180/160/140 would still be much better values than those found on the USF ATG.

To be honest, they are only awful if you can't handle playing them. I still just keep noticing how everyone basically bitches and keep implying that the lesser and much cheaper soviet vehicles should outperform or be equivalent to the more expensive and better performance german counterpart. Even if they are already very cost efficient. Like the Su76, or m5, or even the t34/76. Cheap as chips vehicles should only get so good. Su85s shouldn't be effortlessly autopenning panthers and tigers on top of only being 120-125 fuel with high dps and 60 range. It just simply doesn't make sense.

If you can't handle allies go play axis if its just so laughably easy.

This makes absolutely ZERo sense. Cheaper sov vehicles outperforming their counterparts? What alternate reality are you in?

Su85s shouldn't be effortlessly autopenning panthers and tigers on top of only being 120-125 fuel with high dps and 60 range. It just simply doesn't make sense.

This is a joke? Right?

Daspoulos logic: TD's shouldnt be penning tanks because..... they dont cost as much? WHAT? But im sure its fine for stugs to shock all my armor, rendering them useless. OR the jp4 using its alien cloak to constantly drive back an ISU-152. Or the puma, a vehicle that virtually has no challenge penning ALL allied tanks that are not heavies. Ahh i forgot, those are axis units! So they should be good.

So your real argument is: I dont think Allies AT options should be soo strong, bbecuase for cheaper cost, they shouldnt be threatening more expensive vehicles. Only axis ones should be able to do that.

sorry it will only kill anything that isnt a vetted panzer 4 or a panther.
ever used the AT gun of the americans?if you find that AT gun fine against panthers you clearly dont understand how awful of an idea it is to nerf penetration.

the t34-76 is useless,you might as well make it free.

the su-85s self spot is nice IF IT COULD HIT AT LONG RANGE and the penetration is awful against panthers(honestly why are panthers NON doctrinal anyways??)

Yep, after this I'm almost certain we're playing completely different games.

Do you know how many SU-76s you can build before you get vetted p4s or a panther in a 1v1? With the current SU-76, 2-4 (the number you can build) can deal with panthers frontally no problem.

Moving the t34-76 to tier 4 is a bit lazy, and I'm not sure why they did it, it should be in T3 with the old prices and nothing would really change.

harass heavy tanks with rate of fire and range

ATM, the SU-76 does a lot more than harrass heavy tanks with ROF - considering timings, its possible to get enough SU-76s to kill heavy tanks in a 1v1. Its not even a contest.

counter SU76 with TDs like jagepazner or stug 3 or spread out pak wall usually if someone spaming SU76 they don't have regular AT

Daspoulos logic: TD's shouldnt be penning tanks because..... they dont cost as much? WHAT? But im sure its fine for stugs to shock all my armor, rendering them useless. OR the jp4 using its alien cloak to constantly drive back an ISU-152. Or the puma, a vehicle that virtually has no challenge penning ALL allied tanks that are not heavies. Ahh i forgot, those are axis units! So they should be good.

So your real argument is: I dont think Allies AT options should be soo strong, bbecuase for cheaper cost, they shouldnt be threatening more expensive vehicles. Only axis ones should be able to do that.

Queen do you have memory of a fly? I have never agreed with stug TWP or JP4 alien cloak, and have always suggested on how to change that.

What I am saying is that the Su85 shouldn't be an armor negater. A unit that for so cheap can force off anything that isn't a jp4, elefant, or a jagdtiger. Because currently for only 120-125 fuel, high dps, and 60 range. Making it an autopen vehicle is not a good idea for obvious reasons, otherwise an axis player may ask, "why the fuck even buy a panther or King tiger, if they just become pinatas with effectively zero armor that can't engage whats shooting at them dealing consistent damage every 4.25? seconds for a lot less. You want more buffs? Try accuracy, try turn rate, try something else. Because if there is one thing about the su85 that is already quite good. Its the damage output.

You know, unlike a lot of people I don't try to fein an underlying agenda through my posts. I post exactly what I think and why, not cuz I'm trying to push some reich agenda for hitler or the glory of michael wittmann.

Queen do you have memory of a fly? I have never agreed with stug TWP or JP4 alien cloak, and have always suggested on how to change that.

What I am saying is that the Su85 shouldn't be an armor negater. A unit that for so cheap can force off anything that isn't a jp4, elefant, or a jagdtiger. Because currently for only 120-125 fuel, high dps, and 60 range. Making it an autopen vehicle is not a good idea for obvious reasons, otherwise an axis player may ask, "why the fuck even buy a panther or King tiger, if they just become pinatas with effectively zero armor that can't engage whats shooting at them dealing consistent damage every 4.25? seconds for a lot less. You want more buffs? Try accuracy, try turn rate, try something else. Because if there is one thing about the su85 that is already quite good. Its the damage output.

You know, unlike a lot of people I don't try to fein an underlying agenda through my posts. I post exactly what I think and why, not cuz I'm trying to push some reich agenda for hitler or the glory of michael wittmann.

Su85 is a TD, and performs well. TD's are reactionary, if the opponent goes heavy in armor? You make TD's to counter. If an opponent gets TD's? You should use AT guns and infantry AT weapons.

Nothing is wrong with TD's when there are SOO many ways to counter them.

Su85 is a TD, and performs well. TD's are reactionary, if the opponent goes heavy in armor? You make TD's to counter. If an opponent gets TD's? You should use AT guns and infantry AT weapons.

Nothing is wrong with TD's when there are SOO many ways to counter them.

Theres a lot of synergy to play off when a cheap vehicle can do so much. How are AT guns and inf gonna do well when your opponent needs only 1 su85 to force all ur armor off the field and then can put excess fuel into an is2 or t34/85. Or even like 2 katyushas. Things thats very presence forces off infantry almost immediately when being fired upon. Whats axis gonna do then?

Its a lot harder to even touch vehicles that possess such large range advantages.

Long range firepower and explosive AOE are the most threatening things in the game IMO. Why? Because you can't directly engage units like that. They are scary because they can deal a lot of damage when you can't even defend yourself causing you to make risky plays by closing the distance in an effort to destroy them because they are good at keeping you at bay with almost no risk or bleed for themselves.

Range is not to be underestimated.

Theres a lot of synergy to play off when a cheap vehicle can do so much. How are AT guns and inf gonna do well when your opponent needs only 1 su85 to force all ur armor off the field and then can put excess fuel into an is2 or t34/85. Or even like 2 katyushas. Things thats very presence forces off infantry almost immediately when being fired upon. Whats axis gonna do then?

Its a lot harder to even touch vehicles that possess such large range advantages.

Long range firepower and explosive AOE are the most threatening things in the game IMO. Why? Because you can't directly engage units like that. They are scary because they can deal a lot of damage when you can't even defend yourself causing you to make risky plays by closing the distance in an effort to destroy them because they are good at keeping you at bay with almost no risk or bleed for themselves.

Range is not to be underestimated.

Yep, after this I'm almost certain we're playing completely different games.

Do you know how many SU-76s you can build before you get vetted p4s or a panther in a 1v1? With the current SU-76, 2-4 (the number you can build) can deal with panthers frontally no problem.

Moving the t34-76 to tier 4 is a bit lazy, and I'm not sure why they did it, it should be in T3 with the old prices and nothing would really change.



ATM, the SU-76 does a lot more than harrass heavy tanks with ROF - considering timings, its possible to get enough SU-76s to kill heavy tanks in a 1v1. Its not even a contest.

as i said 2 su-76 cant beat a panther,3 and up give it a beating.

Heavy tanks supported DESTROY su-76s,yet you believe alone they should decimate them.

you expect a tank to destroy tank destroyers,tell me how balanced is this?explain to me why the SU-76 shouldnt penetrate the panther when massed??

also in your very example you told us how AWFUL you are at 1vs1,by the time you bring the panther in a 1vs1 if the soviet players didnt make mistakes you have already lost,you expect 1 unit to counter everything even its counters and turn the game to your favor like it does with the americans.

the only thing you repeat is that the panther shouldnt lose to 4 Su-76,you clearly have no idea what TANK DESTROYERS let me tell you what they do


"A tank destroyer or tank hunter is a type of armoured fighting vehicle, armed with a direct-fire artillery gun or missile launcher, with limited operational capacities and designed specifically to efficiently engage enemy armoured vehicles in a cost-effective manner."

READ BELOW!

"Tanks are generally armoured fighting vehicles designed for front-line combat which combine operational mobility and tactical offensive and defensive capabilities and perform all primary tasks of the armoured troops on the battlefield; the tank destroyer on the other hand is specifically designed mainly for taking on enemy armour"

tell me should tank destroyers lose to panthers??

Queen do you have memory of a fly? I have never agreed with stug TWP or JP4 alien cloak, and have always suggested on how to change that.

What I am saying is that the Su85 shouldn't be an armor negater. A unit that for so cheap can force off anything that isn't a jp4, elefant, or a jagdtiger. Because currently for only 120-125 fuel, high dps, and 60 range. Making it an autopen vehicle is not a good idea for obvious reasons, otherwise an axis player may ask, "why the fuck even buy a panther or King tiger, if they just become pinatas with effectively zero armor that can't engage whats shooting at them dealing consistent damage every 4.25? seconds for a lot less. You want more buffs? Try accuracy, try turn rate, try something else. Because if there is one thing about the su85 that is already quite good. Its the damage output.

You know, unlike a lot of people I don't try to fein an underlying agenda through my posts. I post exactly what I think and why, not cuz I'm trying to push some reich agenda for hitler or the glory of michael wittmann.

this is why the Su-85 doesnt need a price increase BUT a penetration increase

"A tank destroyer or tank hunter is a type of armoured fighting vehicle, armed with a direct-fire artillery gun or missile launcher, with limited operational capacities and designed specifically to efficiently engage enemy armoured vehicles in a cost-effective manner"

it cant penetrate reliably the panther and need 2 su-85 to force it to retreat,which by that time you spent more resources then the german spent just to counter his tank.
unless fuel and mp income on the sovets increases,i dont see a reason increasing the price of the su-85 WHILE buffing its penetration

So nabarxos, you're telling me that because such tank is labeled as TDs, SU-76s can deal with, I don't know, T-54s, Maus, Rattes, Abrams and so on.

You know, there is such things as weapons being obsolete and when the Panthers and Tigers appeared, that's what it was starting to become (that's if those vehicles didn't break down en route LOL)

Throwing more shit at a wall isnt going to help you. That's what the Russians learned in 1941.

So nabarxos, you're telling me that because such tank is labeled as TDs, SU-76s can deal with, I don't know, T-54s, Maus, Rattes, Abrams and so on.

You know, there is such things as weapons being obsolete and when the Panthers and Tigers appeared, that's what it was starting to become (that's if those vehicles didn't break down en route LOL)

Throwing more shit at a wall isnt going to help you. That's what the Russians learned in 1941.

Thank you.

So nabarxos, you're telling me that because such tank is labeled as TDs, SU-76s can deal with, I don't know, T-54s, Maus, Rattes, Abrams and so on.

You know, there is such things as weapons being obsolete and when the Panthers and Tigers appeared, that's what it was starting to become (that's if those vehicles didn't break down en route LOL)

Throwing more shit at a wall isnt going to help you. That's what the Russians learned in 1941.

this is why you dont know a thing about balance!

this is not a real life simulator,deal with it!

now from your saying HALF if not ALL of the soviet stock units INCLUDING the ZIS-3(soviets main AT gun) shouldnt not even penetrate the panther and soviets should just spam one expencive unit(SU-85s) to counter your supirior tank right??

WRONG!!!!!that kills balance

I wouldnt mind having to flank to hit the side armor in order to deal with the panther if i had alot of su-76s,after all the panthers side armor was WORSE then a t34-76 BUT SIDE ARMOR doesnt exist in COH 2 so.........

anyways what you just said is stupid,you just confirmed how little you know about balance and equality yet demand a units performance to be nerfed CAUSE its doing its job.

and this cant be justified "CAUSE REAL LIFE" IT CANT WHEN ALL THE UNITS THE SOVIETS HAVE ARE NOT FIT TO COMBAT THE PANTHER COST-EFFECTIVELY!!!!

Soviets SHOULD NOT have the option to refuse to tech up at all; the whole reason behind call in meta being killed was that it allowed people to refuse to invest or risk anything but still get rewarded. OKW can't refuse to tech, USF can only with 1 doctrine, and Ost can't refuse to tech either (again only 1 doctrine really enables no teching) so why should Soviets magically have the privilege of being able to refuse to tech?

So you want to imply that ostheer HAS NOT the option of tech refusal? Well, you are wrong then, sorry. Ostheer currently (thank you Relic) can be played in one million ways, INCLUDING tech refusal. News flash: you can play ostheer verry well by teching only to T3 and support your medium armor with a heavy call-in like Tiger, Tiger Ace, or Elefant this being an old tactic also.

So it is not to much of a difference. It's true that currently as Soviet you can easily rely on T3 but I saw what teching to T4 can do especially on > 2v2 games. I never saw such a T34 flood in COH2 until that game , it simply didn't matter that T34 is not such a good tank. Currently, it has no need to be good.