the OKW P4--a specialist generalist

Why are you so keen on using exclusively armor against armor?

Such deep denial about AT guns that you won't even acknowledge their existence?

Also, you can suck me about not playing the game.
My most recent uploaded rep is from last night.

Last time you were seen playing the game was then Queen humiliated you.

AT gun's lack mobility. When chasing enemy armor you need something that can be ready to fill gaps or flank at a moments notice. AT guns are fragile and die to tanks themselves quite easy, and most USF/Soviet players will have a big blob following their tanks ready to focus fire your AT guns.

At a 4 man crew + AT gun's green cover still being bugged decrewing them is easy, and thus they lack reliability versus the very fast and mobile Allied lights and Mediums. You need armor of your own to counter them. I'm not saying they are bad, but they are supposed to be used defensively to drive off enemy assaults not to follow attacking armor.

The first counter to USF and SOV armor is the Pak40, which arrives after 10 - 20 + 40 + 20 = 50 fu. Armor never enters the field in an uncounterable state. If it does, it is entering the battlefield WAY too quickly. If you are talking about mobile counters, then for USF the first counter doesn't arrive until 50 - 15 + 120 + 125 = 280 fu. Does that mean that USF T3 should arrive sooner? Of course not!

The Pak40 doesn't hard counter enemy armor on it's own. And Allied armor and Light Vehicles come in greater numbers than Axis ones do making it quite easy to handle Axis tanks with lower numbers of dedicated AT (at least in 2's, idk about the shitshow of 3's or 4's.) The USF AT gun also has a fast ROF making it choice for taking on mediums and lights.

Also USF and Soviets get armor out way before Axis does, so uh, it's not like your going to be facing much but Pak's to start.

You also are ignoring the fact that grenades are the absolute minimum cost the USF will pay while teching, so they are usually 25 fu slower, and Soviets need AT nades, which are also 25 fu.

Yes and Ostheer has to make a medibunker, and upgrade all their squads with LMG's, ect. There is plenty of mandatory stuff we can ignore because it's a constant that isn't going to change. Both Axis and Allies have "mandatory" upgrades.

The cold hard facts show that Ostheer T3 arrives at just the right time. It is slightly slower than rushing allied players would get their medium tiers, but arrives at the same time as players who choose to pay the tech costs for their grenades (which Ostheer pays by teching up).

The cold hard fact that Ostheer has to match the PIV versus T34/85's and Easy Eights sucks. Keeping a PIV around for a while as Ostheer is a pain because you will have a very hard time dealing with their enemy armor (mostly because the main gun pen on the PIV is lack luster like the basic sherman just with slightly more pen at medium and long). It's just way more efficient to get StuG III's for AT and Ostwinds for AI as both tanks excel in their role and get good vet that helps them scale like they should.

So again, why does the Ostheer P4 need to be cheaper?

Because it it's only 5 fuel less than a T34/85 but is completely outclassed by it. Would be horrible if the Ostheer PIV skirts were an upgrade rather than coming from Vet and it's 3 levels of vet just mirror the OKW PIV's?

EDIT: Also I upload replays like every other day. I just uploaded one of me facing off against a top 10 player. If queen wants a rematch he will get it, I might not win (because I'm a 2's player not a 1's) but I won't be a push over this time.

Well as okw people dont necessarily like using racketens. Imo racketens are not a good counter to jacksons and such as a normal AT gun as its so weak and has to move very close to even catch a jackson. A good infantry screen prevents that. Same with shreks, close range relative to the range TDs possess. Imo panthers and jagdpanzers are the only reliable means to ending a TDs life, and even then its not easy. Shreks and racketens will only work due to sheer skill. So when you are fighting someone good, shreks and racketens are basically defense AT and have very little offensive power due to lack of range and mobility.

Had a great laugh reading this.

Utilize all ur units

If queen wants a rematch he will get it, I might not win (because I'm a 2's player not a 1's) but I won't be a push over this time.

You wont win.

Had a great laugh reading this.

Utilize all ur units

Basically in short to defeat a jackson with anything less of a Panther or a jagdpanzer with sight requires a lot of flanking and smashing through an infantry screen quickly to set up shreks and racketens before a jackson speeds away. As good kiting with a jackson is much more effective vs okw than with ostheer imo due to them having paks and halftracks.

Panther doesn't need em.

Its good against IS-2's tought

Have you considered... I don't know.... NOT using tanks to counter tank destroyers and instead using... I don't know.... puppchens and shrecks?

And good luck believing 230 armor tank should cost the same as 180 armor tank with all other stats being same. I can't even tell anymore if you're so naive or so biased to even suggest that laughable change.

Have you considered... I don't know.... PLAYING the game?

I generally dont use tanks vs tank destroyers... But when they have tank destroyers id rather have a tank that can eat 6 hits rather than 4 and can shoot back from 10 meters closer.

It doesnt cost the same. 125 OKW fuel is nearly as expensive as an ostheer panther in terms of mapcontrol/income rates.

WHICH IS WHY the OKW panther costs 175 fuel. Despite it coming sooner and having 5 levels of vet. And why the OKW p4 is overpriced and is a no brainer unless your enemy is going to spam something like T34's or normal shermans.

Because its as powerful as USF and Sov T4, which results in it being as expensive as these.

Just FYI, (and i know you dont play the game so i dont blame you for not knowing) BUT...

SU85 and Jackson hard/soft-counter EVERYTHING in Ostheer T3 due to range advantage.

Would be more accurate to say Ostheer T3 is better than Sov T3 but under Sov T4. Its abit of an "inbetweener", and yes it should be more expensive than Sov T3 BUT not at the current price, its still too much.

Had a great laugh reading this.

Utilize all ur units



You wont win.

The Rackten can be suppressed and only has 50 range. It can garrison for a reason; it's not an offensive unit. And neither are shreks. They are both meant to defend your flanks. Arguing like they are the perfect counter to enemy TD's is assuming your opponent can't micro his shit.

And yeah, I probably won't. But Oz asserted that and lol he lost despite getting an autowin side of the map. Overconfidence...

Its good against IS-2's tought

The JPIV costs the same is much easier to keep around. It also has much better veterancy.

AT gun's lack mobility. When chasing enemy armor you need something that can be ready to fill gaps or flank at a moments notice. AT guns are fragile and die to tanks themselves quite easy, and most USF/Soviet players will have a big blob following their tanks ready to focus fire your AT guns.

At a 4 man crew + AT gun's green cover still being bugged decrewing them is easy, and thus they lack reliability versus the very fast and mobile Allied lights and Mediums. You need armor of your own to counter them. I'm not saying they are bad, but they are supposed to be used defensively to drive off enemy assaults not to follow attacking armor.

Ostheer lacks light armor. Yes, its true. ILL SCREAM IT FROM THE RAFTERS. But that doesn't change anything. But Ostheer is compensated by having the best support weapons in the game. You complain about light armor directly attacking your AT guns, followed up by a blob. This is why you have the MG42 (best suppressing MG in the game) and the Pak (best AT gun). The MG42 is screened by grens that spot for it and faust charging tanks. The MGs kill light armor and suppress infantry. The Pak kills anything with wheels. You can't compensate a faction without light armor by making their medium cheaper. This is because:

1) The Medium won't come fast enough to alleviate the problems you are talking about, so it is a pointless change.

2) Said medium is already balanced in the context of the other tanks in the game.

Also, allied medium armor is about the same speed as German armor (slower if you count blitz), and light vehicle speed has nothing to do with anything. A single faust or teller from a light vehicle trying to flank, and its dead.

Bugs don't play into balance. They are coding issues, and are never compensated for through gameplay.

The Pak40 doesn't hard counter enemy armor on it's own. And Allied armor and Light Vehicles come in greater numbers than Axis ones do making it quite easy to handle Axis tanks with lower numbers of dedicated AT (at least in 2's, idk about the shit show of 3's or 4's.) The USF AT gun also has a fast ROF making it choice for taking on mediums and lights.

See above. Also, the USF AT gun comes without the support of an MG, and delays your armor by 10 fu. The 222 is very much capable of dealing with USF LT tier light armor, as well as T70s (when in groups of two) and SU76s (when flanking).

Also USF and Soviets get armor out way before Axis does, so uh, it's not like your going to be facing much but Pak's to start.

USF and Soviets get their mediums out at around the same time Ostheer gets theirs (slower if they grab nades/ AT nades).

If we are talking about Soviet light vehicles, then you have to remember that these are LIGHT vehicles, not tanks. They will all die from two pak hits (except SU76), don't have smoke, and are what the Soviets get for not having heavy lategame tanks stock (Panthers). Ostheer has never had trouble fighting off USF AAHTs and Stuarts, why is it any harder to deal with T70s that arrive at a similar time?

The M5 AA upgrade is overperforming currently, but that is a problem with the M5, not Ostheer teching.

Yes and Ostheer has to make a medibunker, and upgrade all their squads with LMG's, ect. There is plenty of mandatory stuff we can ignore because it's a constant that isn't going to change. Both Axis and Allies have "mandatory" upgrades.

You are starting to not make sense. Medibunker + lmgs + tellers are munitions based upgrades, not fuel base upgrades. Fuel is the limiting factor as to when vehicles enter the battlefield, this is why we only look at fuel cost when calculating unit timings. Axis has no fuel costing upgrades, with the exception of teching. All grenades, AT grenades, are paid for through teching.

The cold hard fact that Ostheer has to match the PIV versus T34/85's and Easy Eights sucks. Keeping a PIV around for a while as Ostheer is a pain because you will have a very hard time dealing with their enemy armor (mostly because the main gun pen on the PIV is lack luster like the basic sherman just with slightly more pen at medium and long). It's just way more efficient to get StuG III's for AT and Ostwinds for AI as both tanks excel in their role and get good vet that helps them scale like they should.

So build Stugs. They exist in T3 as well, and can support your tank. The P4 is not some shite tank as you seem to think it is. It is perfectly suited to its job, especially when supported. Get it to vet, and it will outscale those Heavy mediums Soviets and USF get doctrinally. Don't expect 1 generalist to do everything for you. This was the problem with the old T34/76. It had no support armor. The P4 absolutely does.

The bonus the P4 gives you is that it allows you to have a tank that can kill infantry AND be useful against armor, while also gaining better veterancy. It has a turret, so can support your Stugs just like your Stugs can support it.

Because it it's only 5 fuel less than a T34/85 but is completely outclassed by it. Would be horrible if the Ostheer PIV skirts were an upgrade rather than coming from Vet and it's 3 levels of vet just mirror the OKW PIV's?

T34/85s are underpriced. I will give you that one, but that doesn't mean the the P4 need a buff. It means that the T34/85 needs a cost nerf. Buffing the P4's price will make it closer in price to a Sherman, which doesn't make sense based off of performance and scaling.

Last chance bud, you still haven't come up with any valid reasons to lower the P4's fuel cost. You can admit you were wrong.

The Rackten can be suppressed and only has 50 range. It can garrison for a reason; it's not an offensive unit. And neither are shreks. They are both meant to defend your flanks. Arguing like they are the perfect counter to enemy TD's is assuming your opponent can't micro his shit.

Guess i need to school you on how to use reketens in my next stomp against you.

Guess i need to school you on how to use reketens in my next stomp against you.

dw ill play OKW you can have your beloved USF.

dw ill play OKW you can have your beloved USF.

What are u talking about? I WILL beat you with every faction, and yes, in 1v1.

Oh i cant wait to stomp you as OKW. So you can eat all this "OKW always on the backfoot Bullshit."

Unlike you, im comfortable with every faction.

Yes and Ostheer has to make a medibunker, and upgrade all their squads with LMG's, ect. There is plenty of mandatory stuff we can ignore because it's a constant that isn't going to change. Both Axis and Allies have "mandatory" upgrades.

Cause i don't want to drug in the mud fight, i'll answer just this.
If you are talking about tech RUSH, we just take into account the quickest fuelwise way to get them. This means ignoring, ambulance, nades, bar/zook, AT nades, molotov, T2 OH. Medic (bunker and SU) doesn't have fuel cost attach to them so you discard them on the tech race.

IF you want to put on balance all factions on how much they have to realistically pay then consider:
USF: nades/Bar-Zook + ambulance + LT/CPT + Major
OH: T1 + BP1 + T2 + Medic bunker + BP2 + T3
SU: T1/T2 + Medics + T3 + T4 + Molotov/AT nade

USF:
150+(150)+250+200+240 > 840/990 mp
-15+25+(15)+10+(50)+(60)+120 > 180/215 f

OH:
-60+80+100+200+150+100+260 > 830mp
-20+10+40+20+45+75 > 170 f
+60 > 60muni

SU:
160+250+240+240+125+(125) > 1015/1140 mp
-50+40+(50)+80+90+25+(25) > 185/220f

This is why teamgames teching is flawed, when you can skip cost and teching which are mandatory on 1v1. Example: medics or AT.

Yes, OKW PIV is a superbe unit and I draw back all my concerns related to its price. OKW feels actualy as a verry good faction choice currently.

BUT.....!

Prediction: sooner than we think there will be at least an okw PZIV OP thread. For sure!

Done and done.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/38749/okw-piv-op
Show Spoiler

P4 has an interesting touch with it.

What are u talking about? I WILL beat you with every faction, and yes, in 1v1.

Oh i cant wait to stomp you as OKW. So you can eat all this "OKW always on the backfoot Bullshit."

Unlike you, im comfortable with every faction.

What does this post even mean? I play Ostheer, Soviets, and OKW. I don't like playing USF because it's boring as shit and a terribly designed faction.

I just said i'd do OKW because it's the only faction Iv played in 1v1 (all 5 games!!) at all lol.

What does this post even mean? I play Ostheer, Soviets, and OKW. I don't like playing USF because it's boring as shit and a terribly designed faction.

I just said i'd do OKW because it's the only faction Iv played in 1v1 (all 5 games!!) at all lol.

Nice excuses, cant wait to read the ones you come up with when i stomp you, again , with every faction.

Nice excuses, cant wait to read the ones you come up with when i stomp you, again , with every faction.

really setting yourself up here...

ost p4 is fine doesnt need price changes. Ost t3 is fine too. Its cheaper than USF t4 if usf nades and racks are counted (170 fu vs 205 fu). What ost needs is separate grenade package like allies. And a true light tank. Decrease cost of BP1 and add in separate grenade package. Then we could price increase ost t3 too to match USF. Price increase sov t3 a bit too.

Nice excuses, cant wait to read the ones you come up with when i stomp you, again , with every faction.

Alex has verry little experience in 1v1 - and he's vulnerable against you because an important thing in 1v1 is to know the maps well - but he's doing perfectly fine in 2v2. Why don't you grab a teammate (if anyone stands your sweet style) and have a 2v2 against Alex's team on a ground you both know??

OKW P4 is almost mandatory vs the Ruskies but is a bit too much vs the USF because they depend on vehicles to deal with OKW infantry spam, and P4>Sherman, and can bully infantry.

IMO flak HQ could use a slight cost increase, like 400 MP 80 fuel or 200 MP 100 fuel.

Give the Ost an OKW Puma and it can counters it