DLC Business Ethics - Making a Stock Unit Premium

They moved a standard unit into a doctrine and gave everyone a doctrinal Panzer 4 J with free skirts. What is not to like?

Never underestimate the power of self-entitlement.

Ooooh guys, I got my popcorn. Pz4 in T4 is better than a Sturmtiger Period

When people bought soviets and USF they could call-in med tanks without tech.
I think losing access to a feature you previously owned is weird, even if it makes thing for the better.

This is how your argument sounds like.
Expecting games not to be balanced over time is delusional. If balance requires such change, then so be it.
Also the content doesn't disappear, its still there in the doctrine, you can pick it if you want any time.

Those tech changes are mechanical - they don't have anything to do with content. It'd only be the same if you lost access to the T-34/85 model.

Balances changes are fine but if the game is sold piecemeal then players shouldn't lose access to particular pieces of the game through updates. I'm not sure where you're getting this straw man from.

Losing access to features and mechanics I think are acceptable as part of balance changes, but not losing access to unit types, especially if those unit types are still available through premium content.

I play Coh2 a lot. Next to CS the only game I play. Since they introduced the warspoil drop system I got:

Osttruppen Commander
Fortification Commander for OKW (Pak43 one)
T-34/85 + IS 2 Commander
Jäger Infanterie (lol, standard anyway)
Opel Blitz Commander (lol, standard anyway)

And that was it. A pretty poor outcome if you ask me. Getting the Sturmtiger commander won´t be easy.

Now I can use a unit less. The Panzer IV for compensation does not count. If I want a Panzer IV, I can play Ostheer. Effectively I have one unit less.

If we go by this logic shouldnt Relic charge u more for giving u a better unit in T4? Kappa

Those tech changes are mechanical - they don't have anything to do with content. It'd only be the same if you lost access to the T-34/85 model.

Then make it precision strike or female partisans if that will make you not miss the point.

Balances changes are fine but if the game is sold piecemeal then players shouldn't lose access to particular pieces of the game through updates. I'm not sure where you're getting this straw man from.

Losing access to features and mechanics I think are acceptable as part of balance changes, but not losing access to unit types, especially if those unit types are still available through premium content.

Thats why war spoils are there.

You're not losing access to anything.
You get it by different means.

And its not like it was taken away and nothing was put in its place.

By extension of your logic you should pay to relic additional euro/dollar after installing the patch, because now you're getting premium content for free.

In short: your argument makes no sense.

All I'm suggesting for this is just to give everyone with a premium doctrine some sort of store credit if the doctrine's content shifts in a significant way post-release. As in, more than stat tuning. Like if the B4 were removed from Counter Attack tactics and made a stock soviet union, and Counter Attack tactics got the ML-20, that would qualify, IMO.

You've got non doctrinal P4, there, this is your store credit.

Now stop acting like self entitled douche.

Ungrateful players who always want more for free, even though you're getting updates that make your life easier are bane of each and every game developer and designer.

And believe me, I'm speaking as one who have learned the "hard way" that players demands for more for free and demands to be compensated for mandatory changes that make their game BETTER are infinite.

Then make it precision strike or female partisans if that will make you not miss the point.


Thats why war spoils are there.

You're not losing access to anything.
You get it by different means.

And its not like it was taken away and nothing was put in its place.

By extension of your logic you should pay to relic additional euro/dollar after installing the patch, because now you're getting premium content for free.

In short: your argument makes no sense.

Precision strike is another example of a mechanical change, not a content one.

Female partisans should have gotten fixed, not removed from the game.

Unless you play for a few thousand hours warspoils isn't a plausible way of getting this content again.

My point was never that this was clear wrong doing on Relic's part. I just felt it was a gray area worth discussing. I grew up in a business culture where customers generally get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this so that's why I feel the way I do.

Ungrateful players who always want more for free, even though you're getting updates that make your life easier are bane of each and every game developer and designer.

And believe me, I'm speaking as one who have learned the "hard way" that players demands for more for free and demands to be compensated for mandatory changes that make their game BETTER are infinite.

And I'm sure you have an actual example of this happening...

--EDIT--

Okay, I think this topic has actually gotten away from what I wanted it to be, and that's partially my fault.

Here is my actual position on this:

1. The Sturm Tiger is a unit I use so rarely I honestly would not care if Relic just removed it from the game and did not replace it with anything. I seriously would not care.

2. Having the P4 instead is even better and I expect to greatly enjoy this change.

3. In more abstract terms, this change made me wonder about whether or not, in the process of balancing a game, designers should feel free to switch not just unit stats, but even something as substantial as an entire unit from the "base" to premium content. I get the impression most people like these changes, provided they improve the game.

Now, for this very positive change, I think that reasoning is fine, bu this works well here it may become a more common procedure for Relic, and what about when units are switched from base game to premium content as part of bad change? As much as I appreciate the fine work of Relic's balance team, especially the recent changes, I suspect most people here will agree with me that the balance team also occasionally makes rather bad decisions, such as the making the Germans as strong as they were during March Deployment.

Obviously something included in a game you paid for should not be removed and made into paid DLC after the fact (even you don't really use it), just ignore them. The only instance of people being "entitled" here is the counterargument entitled to their incorrect opinions.

OP doesn't seem like he's trying to be obnoxious or troll, they just don't understand that PIV and Sturmtiger swap is nothing but good for the OKW and makes the faction much better to play. I think that far outweighs any QQ about $4.99 DLC that can be obtained via warspoils.

I truly don't understand how people can afford a gaming PC, internet connection, $60 base game etc as a hobby and get all worked up over something like this. If you want access to Sturmtiger SO bad just buy it.

OP doesn't seem like he's trying to be obnoxious or troll, they just don't understand that PIV and Sturmtiger swap is nothing but good for the OKW and makes the faction much better to play. I think that far outweighs any QQ about $4.99 DLC that can be obtained via warspoils.

I truly don't understand how people can afford a gaming PC, internet connection, $60 base game etc as a hobby and get all worked up over something like this. If you want access to Sturmtiger SO bad just buy it.

For the first point, see earlier posts in the thread.

For the second, AFAIK no one has complained that they can't afford it ... just like I could afford to pay Creative Assembly $9.99 in order to continue using Trebuchets in M2TW, but I would be annoyed at having to do so, even if it was part of a change that greatly improved game play.

Turning this around, Relic can also afford to send out a store credit...

OP doesn't seem like he's trying to be obnoxious or troll, they just don't understand that PIV and Sturmtiger swap is nothing but good for the OKW and makes the faction much better to play. I think that far outweighs any QQ about $4.99 DLC that can be obtained via warspoils.

I truly don't understand how people can afford a gaming PC, internet connection, $60 base game etc as a hobby and get all worked up over something like this. If you want access to Sturmtiger SO bad just buy it.

You should always question bad business practice, whether affordable or not.

Think of it like this: you go to Ruby Tuesday and order some standard hamburger. Waiter brings it to you with lettuce and tomato. He sets plate down on table, lifts up the bun and removes the tomato and says you can pay 25 cent to get your tomato back but he adds some onions on there instead. If they want to add in a P4 also then great, but don't take away something that was already there and shove it behind a pay wall because you added something else. Personally I've only used the Sturmtiger like 2 or 3 times in ownage games, but its about principle.

You should always question bad business practice, whether affordable or not.

Think of it like this: you go to Ruby Tuesday and order some standard hamburger. Waiter brings it to you with lettuce and tomato. He sets plate down on table, lifts up the bun and removes the tomato and says you can pay 25 cent to get your tomato back but he adds some onions on there instead. If they want to add in a P4 also then great, but don't take away something that was already there and shove it behind a pay wall because you added something else. Personally I've only used the Sturmtiger like 2 or 3 times in ownage games, but its about principle.

These examples are really tortured logic. I could turn it around and say that you're complaining when the burger has had lettuce and tomato, but the menu changed later on to have lettuce and onion. Start vomiting up those burgers.

This principle is silly.

These examples are really tortured logic. I could turn it around and say that you're complaining when the burger has had lettuce and tomato, but the menu changed later on to have lettuce and onion. Start vomiting up those burgers.

This principle is silly.

Hah! That turned around quickly didn't it?

wait there is one thing i don't get since when has any resutuaunt ever charged for letuce or tomato??? those come standard and you have to beg them not to include it

anyways lets not call people "douches" or other names if you have to write them look at it smile that satisfied smile then remove it from your post before you hit post. (im not gonna remove any posts i think for the most part they are fine.)

/back on topic

my opinion on this is if they made a brand new commander and only put the sturmtiger in it. then tried to sell it along with britsh that would be shady. however from what it sounds like they are switching out the units of an already existing commander which has obvious good intentions imo even if you risk some backlash its worth doing because not improving it is more harmful imo. i hate when game studios arent willing to do stuff like this because of that reason. even if it means haveing to give out free stuff.

Never underestimate the power of self-entitlement.

Powerfull words Lord Katikof

Well getting rare commanders for OKW isn't that hard you guys. If you play some 4v4s the drops are insanely frequent.

I would say, a item trading system

This, so much.

A unit is a mechanic; the difference between them is purely cosmetic. They are both just a deliberate and particular arrangement of effects.