Soviet T3 need cost increase or Ost T3 cost reduction!

Currently SU-76's with it's penetration is surely no light tank (in my opinion), since it just beats down everything from range. It's no problem that it was buffed, but I think they overdone it, while the Stug-III is now just an ordinary tank destroyer, with simular stats as other TD's. Now Soviets have next to their ZiS and SU-85 also SU-76 (with Barrage) as 1 unit with barrages is not enough they just gave it 2 units to obliterate your AT and MG's. To play defensive mostly of the time you have to make a static frontline.

Well, SU-76 also doesn't cost like light armor. Its just 5 fuel short from medium tank destroyer M10.
It already have lower damage, hp and armor to warrant it light TD status and light TD is still TD.

On top of that, SU-76 barrage is highly inaccurate and have much longer cooldown then ZiS-3 barrage, its nice addition that always was there, but it was never something you could rely on, especially since if first shot won't wipe you, you can simply re position few meters to the side and be perfectly safe.

Also it amazes me that axis only players believe sov T3=ost T3.

Semi agree...

Although the Brummbar isnt really heavy at all... The Pwerfer isnt worth going T4 for since they halved its rocket count and it has half the rage of the Katyusha. The Panther is the only decent tank in here and even that is pretty meh for the extra fuel you would have to pay to get it. (You could have 2 p4's AND be floating an extra 50 fuel instead of getting a panther).

Id take an SU85 over any of these any day.

Absolutely yes. The usless Brummbar costs 480MP+165 fuel while T3485 cost only 380MP+130 fuel... It really maks me lol... It seems that the GREAT Brummbar can do alot of works than the best medium tank of the whole game... Also, the panzerwerfer is just shit compared to the Katyusha which can be seen in every single game. It is just a joke that you must push an artillery unit on the enemy's face to make it accurate,while the Katrushas can do their works very well at great distance. Yes the only decent unit in ost T4 is the panther...The other 2 never worth it. I haven't built them for a long long time. Even the panther cost too much, and you can hardly skip to the T4 because of bad map control.

Im really disappointed about this new tech change. It looks like relic removes ost T4 forever and makes ost a faction which lacks a whole light-armor tech.

I m sure its not pak its our bad players' micro is not flexible enough. You previusly have been saying that t70 is not a problem for you. And was complaining about m5.

With good micro single pak hard counters T3 forcing sovs to lose units and stop heavy T3 play.
Its is really L2P issue.
Right now you saying you want p4 for free win, its like geting tiger ace at the start of the game.
P4 was OP considering when it was arriving.
Plus buffed 222 is now capable of chasing and killing damaged t70. T70 getting engin damgae crit ussualy from a single hit of a pak or faust.

You completely ignore the fact that the battle is between T70s supported by ATGs and 222s supported by ATGs. The fact is ost lacks a whole light tank tech support. So it's not a L2P issue, but a balance issue.

When one faction must choose one unit to counter another, but the other faction can choose freely. It's a balance issue now.

Absolutely yes. The usless Brummbar costs 480MP+165 fuel while T3485 cost only 380MP+130 fuel... It really maks me lol... It seems that the GREAT Brummbar can do alot of works than the best medium tank of the whole game... Also, the panzerwerfer is just shit compared to the Katyusha which can be seen in every single game. It is just a joke that you must push an artillery unit on the enemy's face to make it accurate,while the Katrushas can do their works very well at great distance. Yes the only decent unit in ost T4 is the panther...The other 2 never worth it. I haven't built them for a long long time. Even the panther cost too much, and you can hardly skip to the T4 because of bad map control.

Im really disappointed about this new tech change. It looks like relic removes ost T4 forever and makes ost a faction which lacks a whole light-armor tech.

Have to agree with the most of it. But I've seen games where my teammate used a panzerwerfer and it can completely destroy everything, but yes it need to be close ranged for that.

When one faction must choose one unit to counter another, but the other faction can choose freely. It's a balance issue now.

You mean... like rifles vs MG42?
Like the need for soviet elite infantry because stock ones can't do shit vs LMG grens?
Like T34 and sherman that always needed ATG while P4 can YOLO allied meds?
Like B4 vs supported ele?

I could go like this for a whole day...
Its nothing new.
Its why soviets are having tech change in the first place-they always MUST chose one unit to counter another while ost could pick their units freely.

You mean... like rifles vs MG42?
Like the need for soviet elite infantry because stock ones can't do shit vs LMG grens?
Like T34 and sherman that always needed ATG while P4 can YOLO allied meds?
Like B4 vs supported ele?

I could go like this for a whole day...
Its nothing new.
Its why soviets are having tech change in the first place-they always MUST chose one unit to counter another while ost could pick their units freely.

But you can't make something extremely cheaper then other techs. It's fair to let your opponents to get some counters against it. It doesn't have to completely obliterate it, but like I told you multiple times. By the time the first stuff rolls out it's 7 minutes. (Early game is not about light verhicles but about infantry gameplay)

But you can't make something extremely cheaper then other techs. It's fair to let your opponents to get some counters against it. It doesn't have to completely obliterate it, but like I told you multiple times. By the time the first stuff rolls out it's 7 minutes. (Early game is not about light verhicles but about infantry gameplay)

OKW have pumas and stealth puppchens.
Ost have 222s and PaKs.

Additionally you can use Ost doctrinal pumas.
Also before someone rushes in with "but it delays medium armor", well, T3 light vehicles doesn't exactly speed up the T4 either, getting more then single one means you'll be fighting med tanks with SU-76 at best. There comes also munition management(sorry, you can't spam LMGs to your hearts content with impunity anymore).

All of these keep light armor at bay.

Counters arrive before the light armor.
The "problem" is, many people thing ost T3=sov T3 and think "counters" to light armor should be medium armor arriving at the same time. Do I need to remind that it was the exact reason why light armor play completely extinct?

Sure, T-70 or quad will obliterate you and force you off the field, but only if you won't anticipate it and prepare for it at all.

Now, check old replays and see what allies did against fast luchs, then do the same against T70 and stuarts.

For me non 1v1 is just to fool around sometimes. Like in SC competitive games are only 1v1.

2v2 looks like who will be more succesfull with a blob. Im even unable to click my units on big minimap in 2v2 cuz the map is flooded with units that are close to each other.

Your opinion is very important for us. Thanks for sharing it.

But you can't make something extremely cheaper then other techs. It's fair to let your opponents to get some counters against it. It doesn't have to completely obliterate it, but like I told you multiple times. By the time the first stuff rolls out it's 7 minutes. (Early game is not about light verhicles but about infantry gameplay)

7 minutes isn't exactly early game any longer. Soviet T3 gives you access to T70, M5 HT, and the SU76. All of these units fall under the definition of light vehicle due to their HP, armor, and role on the battlefield. 7 minutes is the time most light vehicles come out, the Stuart, Puma, and AAHT all come out at around this time.

Ostheer not having light armor is a part of their design. They get access to their T4 as compensation. THe brummbar and panzerwerfer underperforming are problems, but not problems that would be fixed by making T4 come faster. All a faster T4 with no fixes to weak units would do is make Panthers come too early.

Finally, Ostheer T3 already comes at the correct time compared to other medium tiers. Making it come any faster would allow Ostheer to get medium tanks much faster than any other faction can, giving them an unfair advantage. You have counters to light vehicles in your T2. pshreck pgrens, paks, and 222s are all perfectly viable counters to light armor.

The only thing that needs to be looked at is the M5 AAHT in its current iteration. It should either come later, be weaker, or have a set up mechanic.

you should get t3 to counter t70 or m5 ??? r u crazy? t2 has panzergrens and pak40 to counter any kind of mechanized units

Also, 222 + PaK = Massive sight range for the PaK. Use this to your advantage.

Don't make a massive T1 Ost investment, when you know Sov T3 is now earlier. Sitting behind MG's with a mortar, sniper and 3x Grens (with LMG's) is going to hurt you.

Choccy I know what you mean, but some maps (unfortunatly map balance) completely shut that down. PzGrens with Schreks on it is not closing the deal, since you have to come from way too far. Flanking could do it, but is hard to pull off.

Map balance is no reason to give Ost a cheaper T3. Map balance is a huge issue, in and of itself.

More maps favour Axis then they do Allies in 2's. If you add a cheaper Ost T3, it's going to be worse on those maps. Moscow Outskirts (the game we're talking about) has always been hard for Axis, particularly double Ost.

Also, 222 + PaK = Massive sight range for the PaK. Use this to your advantage.

Don't make a massive T1 Ost investment, when you know Sov T3 is now earlier. Sitting behind MG's with a mortar, sniper and 3x Grens (with LMG's) is going to hurt you.

Do you think now sovs' ml 20 is now viable vs red germs in 1v1? They messed up things in game with mg42 buff. Making 4-5 cons, no tech building start not viable

Not really the thread to be discussing that aaa. See the howie thread (you already replied in).

Absolutely yes. The usless Brummbar costs 480MP+165 fuel while T3485 cost only 380MP+130 fuel... It really maks me lol... It seems that the GREAT Brummbar can do alot of works than the best medium tank of the whole game... Also, the panzerwerfer is just shit compared to the Katyusha which can be seen in every single game. It is just a joke that you must push an artillery unit on the enemy's face to make it accurate,while the Katrushas can do their works very well at great distance. Yes the only decent unit in ost T4 is the panther...The other 2 never worth it. I haven't built them for a long long time. Even the panther cost too much, and you can hardly skip to the T4 because of bad map control.

Im really disappointed about this new tech change. It looks like relic removes ost T4 forever and makes ost a faction which lacks a whole light-armor tech.

Lol comparing doctrinal unit and stock unit, oh you.

ML-20 is a pain in the butt for OKW, but yea not the right forumpost for that

Lol. I don't really play soviets but I swear some of you are just so stupid.

Ost t3 != Soviet t3. Soviet t3 is now light vehicles, where-as Ost t3 is unchanged with a great medium tank and now very powerful stug (underpriced).

You cannot have Ost t3 priced similarly to soviet t3. Just L2P and be prepared for it and get a pak a minute faster than normal... or adapt and get 2x ac's if your that worried. I have had no issues dealing with it in the mod patch, it just needs preparation similarly to how you need to prepare for potencial Flak HT/Puma/Luchs rush as allies.

Counters arrive before the light armor.

The problem with these counters is that they force the ostheer player to adopt a "turtle-like" playstile. I cannot extend with my packs and pzgrens as fast and efficient as can do it with your T3 vehicles. So the ostheer player should be happy with a small part of map, trying to constantly repel attak waves instead of being agressive while he is constantly pushed in the corner. The only chance is that his defense or his enemy's mistakes or both will cause enough casualities among allied units, in order for his units to begin gaining ground or wait for more powerfull units as PIV, or T4 units.

Lol. I don't really play soviets but I swear some of you are just so stupid.

Ost t3 != Soviet t3. Soviet t3 is now light vehicles, where-as Ost t3 is unchanged with a great medium tank and now very powerful stug (underpriced).

You cannot have Ost t3 priced similarly to soviet t3. Just L2P and be prepared for it and get a pak a minute faster than normal... or adapt and get 2x ac's if your that worried. I have had no issues dealing with it in the mod patch, it just needs preparation similarly to how you need to prepare for potencial Flak HT/Puma/Luchs rush as allies.

AAHT will have the greatest effect in 1v1, simply because paks can only defend part of the map. The rest of the map will be open slather for the AAHT. The problem I see is AAHT will be able to patrol the edges while Sov indirect fire pounds the Ost fortified position..

As for making 2 AC to counter AAHT, thats insane. Guards, mines, at nades shut down AC's completely.
Scout cars are just a complete waste of fuel on most maps vs sov, unless shocks are used.