Balance Data Since The Patch

Also, regarding game balance and how it relates to skill, this is a fascinating watch:

+1

Guard motor is the zerg rush of our time

Guard motor is the zerg rush of our time

I agree. The sad thing is, CoH2 has had many Zerg rush moments, for both factions. Guards motor has been a crutch for a very long time (and still is, but to a lesser degree of effectiveness).

And SCAS is our noob pipe.


I think easiest time are having noobs and then pros.
When youre in mid of them you will be having hard time defeating easy stong strats and hard time defeating those pros strats.
It is because when your in mid you must iprove so you cant be using those easy cheese strats like guard motor , but still you are not so good to defeat them.

Because bringing up an 8 month old scandal was the shining beacon of maturity huh?

I don't know anything about whatever scandal you are referring to and was not jumping on any bandwagon. I posted what I did because you'd gone off the deep end with generalizations about people that disagree with you, and then posted the very Bear-specific diatribe.

Also, regarding game balance and how it relates to skill, this is a fascinating watch:

This is one of the best videos I have ever seen on the subject. Best of all, everything they explain directly relates to COH2.

Also, regarding game balance and how it relates to skill, this is a fascinating watch:

This video is extremely funny because essentially CoH2 is nothing BUT foo strategies that people just swap as the meta demands

I genuinely had no idea about that until this thread. All I knew was that you were friends with Brad. I've since talked to others about it, and had the full story.

If I caused offence, I apologise. It wasn't my intention.


REQUEST TO MODS: I'd like this topic to continue about the subject it's intended for, from this point on. If it degenerates again, please close.

It's difficult to have a good discussion on this when we don't have a good data set. Anecdotally, it feels like the balance is somewhat okay in 1's and 2's but not good in 3's and 4's, which is similar to what the random results show. That said, the 3v3 and 4v4 random results would never be a good metric to use to balance the game, unless radical design changes were made (like eliminating all heavies). Realistically, Relic isn't going to make any radical design changes because the return on investment isn't likely to be acceptable. Most of the players play the computer or campaigns, and as long as those are fun to them, they will continue to buy DLC and expansions.


In the group of three that I normally play with, we had a seven game losing streak as allies and a 12 game winning streak as axis at the same time with the current patch. Now, maybe we suddenly forgot how to play allies and only know how to play when playing axis, or maybe the balance in larger games shifted.

In any case, Relic didn't do us any favors by implementing just part of a balance patch. Eventually, we will figure something out that is somewhat competitive as allies in 3's and 4's only to have to go through the same process again when the rest of the changes hit. In the meantime, I'll likely play 1's and 2's as either faction and 3's and 4's as primarily axis, so I can feel good about myself and get the participation medal. Playing as axis is a lot more fun in larger games anyway, given that there is a lot more variety of ways to play as axis in larger games.

On a positive note, 1v1's as OKW seem better now.

This video is extremely funny because essentially CoH2 is nothing BUT foo strategies that people just swap as the meta demands

+1




Also, why you hating Dusty? We are all a bunch of 4v4 allies only scrubs? Well first off ... no. Im on a bear only axis at that isnt too bad, and we arent even close to the best in the clan. Second..... Shove off mate. Not too long ago i remember seeing your name on our roster. We don't subscribe to the 1v1 master race like some do. We aren't pros. We aren't all as good as you. you have a massive dick. I am in awe of your dick. We did however, spend as much money for the game as you have and are as entitled to a balanced game as anyone else

lots and lots of guys/gals play large team games. the balance there is not ideal. I can assure you there are a few cheesy strats as axis that require much much more skill to counter effectively as allies. That is not good balance in my opinion. Easy cheese should be fairly easy to defeat given the correct counter. I can not an will not comment on 1s and 2s as i rarely play 2s and never 1s. i like the social aspect of multiplayer games. Currently in my mode of choice i find it rather easy to win as axis and rather hard to win as allies, thus ive been playing a lot of warthunder so i dont break my computer monitor in anger from another team full of wehraboos building nothing but mg42s and my rifleman cant seem to manage any sort of victory. Feel free to suggest flamethrowers and mortars..... wait a sec....

Are you just making up shit for the sake of it?

You as a player are what would be called a Silver tier player in CSGO. The balance update that was done in 2013 that affected recoil negatively affected silver tier, because now it is harder for them to spray and aim every single gun, and the better players that understand the deeper mechanics of movement in positioning in CSGO will trash the silver players easily. This is literally the same thing in CoH, when things like the 120mm crutch mortar got nerfed, or the Tiger Ace, and people cried on the forums since they could no longer abuse it.

Do you think CS is a good example to take when explaining CoH2? I think you should look at a game like LoL. And in LoL that's not how they balance

In the group of three that I normally play with, we had a seven game losing streak as allies and a 12 game winning streak as axis at the same time with the current patch. Now, maybe we suddenly forgot how to play allies and only know how to play when playing axis, or maybe the balance in larger games shifted.

On a positive note, 1v1's as OKW seem better now.

Exactly. That's the point of the meta shift. Every time there is a patch people need to relearn the game. For the pro's this might take a day or two, for some it will take a week or two.

I'm very much guilty of jumping on the bandwagon when it comes to saying things are now awful/good, and Iv been trying to do that less.

As for how OKW is right now I would just repeat what I said earlier; OKW early game with the suppression buff for the Kubel/MG34 is a lot nicer but still suffers from the fact OKW lacks any kind of early game building clearance that's affordable. But still it's manageable.

What's really hurting OKW right now is the mid game, there is a huuuuge gap between the T1 and T2 vehicles and t3 vehicles. Medic HQ is so insanely popular because the JPIV can help bridge that gap but the lack of an affordable generalist tank has been a real huge kick in the balls for OKW lately.

Countering MG's like the .50 cal is also problematic, as with the maxim flanking can normally work with it's tight cone but you don't have that with the .50.

This thread is hilarious.

Any idea that a game can be balanced from "the top", i.e. looking only at how the top 1% of players interact with the game, and using this knowledge to modify the game in a way that meaningfully affects everybody, is complete and utter bullshit.

"OMG Dpfarce, post your sources!!"

No, I'm not going to post sources. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to support your argument

• posting sources that state your argument for you = strawman appeal to authority
  
• posting sources that provide statistics, facts, or supporting arguments upon which your argument lies = good history, referencing, academic work
  
  

E.g. Saying that "The French Revolution was caused by popular discontent" then citing John Merriman's book, in which he says those exact words = strawman argument.
Saying that "Revolution X is caused by popular discontent, because it is very similar to the French Revolution" then citing John Merriman's work on the French Revolution when you wish to compare events between the two revolution = proper use of references. YOUR ARGUMENT is being supported by an expert's opinion, i.e. his opinion being true adds weight to your argument, but his opinion being false doesnt automatically nullify your argument. YOUR ARGUMENT is not the same as the expert's opinion; John Merriman never drew a link between the French Revolution and Revolution X, I'm the historian who wishes to make this claim.


99% of the arguments in this thread sound like this.

Riot games/Blizzard/Ubihard/etc balances to the top 1%, therefore all companies should balance to the top1%
The American Civil War was caused by a disagreement about slavery, therefore all civil wars are caused by disagreements about slavery.

This is complete strawmanning and appealing to authority, with absolutely no actual evidence given to support your facts.


There are many games in the world where the simple thought of balancing something to the top 1% would make absolutely no sense at all.


Can you balance soccer/football to only the world cup?
- It's too easy to kick a penalty in world cup level football, so let's make the goal box smaller for everyone.

Can you balance baseball only to the superbowl?
- It's too hard to hit a home run in the superbowl, so let's make the field smaller.

None of this even makes any sense - unless you make two sets of rules, any balance changes you make will have an affect on all players. (Which is why 99% of sports have multiple rule sets to cater for skill level, age, physical development, etc)


These are also terrible metrics by which to compare coh2. While both teams are identical in soccer, and in baseball, both teams have a turn at striking and pitching, in coh2 one team must be allies, and one team must be axis.
- Think of this like in baseball, where one team is only allowed to pitch for the whole game, and whehter they win or not is depepdant purely on how few runs they concede.
- This will of course have a completely different balance mechanic than regular baseball, where things like the size of the field, the distance between the pitcher/hitter don't really matter as much, because it affects both teams equally.

Our closest point of comparison in the e-sports world is probably league of legends. we are similar, in that both teams can't be axis, and both teams can't have a Master Yi.

A look at league of legends statistics shows there are serious differences in win-rates between different tiers of players.

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-winrate&range=daily&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked

For example:
The highest win-rate champion in Bronze Tier (lowest) is Ahri. Over 50% of players are in bronze tier.
The highest win-rate champion in Diamond Tier is Karthus. About 250 players per region (NA/EU/OCE/etc) can be in diamond tier (i.e. 0.0X%)

Karthus doesn't even show up on the bronze tier win% chart, nor does ahri show up on the diamond tier win% chart. Ahri does, however, make some entries in some of the other charts, just not at position #1


"Right," said Morello, who doesn't actually even have a college degree yet helped start one of the most successful startups of all time. "We must buff Ahri."

"Are you sure?" said Phreak, who probably has a degree in something like Library Studies but is now lead champion designer of one of the most successful games of all time. "Ahri has a 55% win rate in Bronze tier, and 50% of our players are bronze!"

Morello adjusted his glasses. "No, Phreak. We don't give two fucks about them. Balance to the top 0.0x%"

This sounds completely absurd, and is a terrible way to balance a video game.


Overall % data like provided in this thread is a great place to start. However, saying "axis has a 90% win rate in 4v4s" is like saying "champions with blue hair have a 90% win rate in Diamond Tier" - there is absolutely nothing obliging players to play all champions with blue hair equally. IN coh2, while CAS may be propping up the OST win rate, this does not necessarily mean the faction is overpowered, anymore than just because Vi (blue hair champion) has a 90% win rate, we should nerf Irelia (who also has blue hair).

Win% data allows us a broad window into the general vacinity that a problem lies in (OST 4v4). We need to look closer, however, to identify exactly what the problems are (CAS doctrine? Tiger Ace?)


tl;dr
this thread is filled with people who are appealing to authority by citing sources like a 49/100 first year history student instead of giving proper arguments as to the how the game could be balanced based on the data available. I, on the other hand, have presented a coherent argument that doesn't rely on opinions from those of authority, instead of statistics and logic, and have offered a suggestion about how we can use this data to balance the game, and which pitfalls to be aware of.

+1

Can you balance baseball only to the superbowl?
- It's too hard to hit a home run in the superbowl, so let's make the field smaller.

u tawkn bout wurld series?

Also, regarding game balance and how it relates to skill, this is a fascinating watch:

+1

Also yeah idk why Relic decided to apply the weapon killing thing to everything instead of just the PTRS since the Sturmtiger is now a unit without a role.

all l2p issues

u tawkn bout wurld series?

Lol sports analogies gone wrong.

Part 1

all l2p issues

Could you be more specific?

Could you be more specific?

When allies struggle in 4's its fine. But when you suck with okw its, Problem 1 2 3 4 and etc.

in your words "relearn" how to play.

A medium tank isn't gona solve shit if you struggle with these things now.

You lack suppressing, kool, pick one of the 2 commanders that grant you an mg34

You lack garrison clearing, fine, pick a commander with infiltration nades.

Struggle with mg's, kewl, flank like everybody else.

Every other faction must choose a commander to stay competitive, okw is no exception.

When allies struggle in 4's its fine. But when you suck with okw its, Problem 1 2 3 4 and etc.

in your words "relearn" how to play.

A medium tank isn't gona solve shit if you struggle with these things now.

You lack suppressing, kool, pick one of the 2 commanders that grant you an mg34

You lack garrison clearing, fine, pick a commander with infiltration nades.

Struggle with mg's, kewl, flank like everybody else.

Every other faction must choose a commander to stay competitive, okw is no exception.

I mentioned all those things in my post? Like what is the point of this post. Iv never said Allies struggling in 4's is fine.

OKW lacking a generalist medium to bridge the gap between the PV and P2 is a thing.