Basic Infantry Combat

Hey guys!

I'm looking for some info on the balance of power of standard infantry units in coh2.

For example, in vcoh, if I remember correctly, volks beat rifles at distance while rifles win the close combat. I'd be interested to get to know those kind of relations in coh2. I care less about the obvious (like shocks vs fuseliers), and more about the standard infantry play (all vanilla units). In terms of:

OKW Volks vs Cons? vs Rifles?
OH Grens vs Cons? vs Rifles?

If there's already a thread about it feel free to redirect.

cheers,
hanz

Rule of thumb is
Rifle Armed Infantry
Allied Rifle Armed infantry wants to close in as soon as possible, where they can take advantage of their generally superior numbers.
Germans like to remain at a distance.

Versus SMG/Assault Rifles

Maintain distance, if you are using multiple squads, focus down one squad at a time. Do not immediately give up a close range fight, making one target a primary can mean the sheer number of rifle shots you are putting out will bring down the enemy. This can work even versus shock troops.

Grenadiers v cons

The most balanced match up in the game. Therefore, anything you can do to make the odds go in your favour is beneficial. Even firing a Rifle nade/molotov and forcing the enemy to move and lose shots at you will allow you to win.
Conscripts prefer to rush down Grens, the trick with grens is to whittle them down prior to the close in brawl. 5 cons vs 4 grens is still a possible win for the cons, if you're close enough. Equal numbers means cons are better off retreating.
Don't charge grens into cons unless you're certain they're supported by something else. Cons can get away with it. Loss of a gren model vs a full conscript squad is a loss for your grens, retreat them and fight somewhere else.

Things are roughly similar for the US rifles, but be wary with rifles as they can smoke you and grenade you more effectively, but generally smoke will be saved for your MGs.

Volks need to kept at range at all times, though their hand grenade is good and their doctrinal grenade is fearsome. Them providing covering fire whilst the sturmpios rush in and following up with a grenade or two is an effective combo.

A wild card ultra early game is Sturmpios. You'll be extremely lucky to defeat them one on one with rifles or cons. 2 rifles/con will do the trick fine unless you're surprised at close range.

Hope this helps. Your early game will define the late game. Therefore mastering the early game is key. Tactics and position is one thing. Raw knowledge and experience of everything that's worked and hasn't is another.

Marco pretty much covers it, but it's important to note that later in the game these matchups can change a bit. Axis infantry scales much better late game.

For instance, a vet 3 gren squad with an LMG is beastly and can take on almost any infantry unit, particularly when kept behind cover and at long range.

The common factor that remains the same the entire game is that Axis infantry are generally (not all of them, but most) more effective from long range and Allied infantry are generally more effective up close. This is also one thing to consider when picking map vetos for your faction, as some maps are more "close ranged" like Stalingrad or "long ranged" like Crossing in the Woods.

Rule of thumb is
Rifle Armed Infantry
Allied Rifle Armed infantry wants to close in as soon as possible, where they can take advantage of their generally superior numbers.
Germans like to remain at a distance.

Versus SMG/Assault Rifles

Maintain distance, if you are using multiple squads, focus down one squad at a time. Do not immediately give up a close range fight, making one target a primary can mean the sheer number of rifle shots you are putting out will bring down the enemy. This can work even versus shock troops.

Grenadiers v cons

The most balanced match up in the game. Therefore, anything you can do to make the odds go in your favour is beneficial. Even firing a Rifle nade/molotov and forcing the enemy to move and lose shots at you will allow you to win.
Conscripts prefer to rush down Grens, the trick with grens is to whittle them down prior to the close in brawl. 5 cons vs 4 grens is still a possible win for the cons, if you're close enough. Equal numbers means cons are better off retreating.
Don't charge grens into cons unless you're certain they're supported by something else. Cons can get away with it. Loss of a gren model vs a full conscript squad is a loss for your grens, retreat them and fight somewhere else.

Things are roughly similar for the US rifles, but be wary with rifles as they can smoke you and grenade you more effectively, but generally smoke will be saved for your MGs.

Volks need to kept at range at all times, though their hand grenade is good and their doctrinal grenade is fearsome. Them providing covering fire whilst the sturmpios rush in and following up with a grenade or two is an effective combo.

A wild card ultra early game is Sturmpios. You'll be extremely lucky to defeat them one on one with rifles or cons. 2 rifles/con will do the trick fine unless you're surprised at close range.

Hope this helps. Your early game will define the late game. Therefore mastering the early game is key. Tactics and position is one thing. Raw knowledge and experience of everything that's worked and hasn't is another.

Marco pretty much covers it, but it's important to note that later in the game these matchups can change a bit. Axis infantry scales much better late game.

For instance, a vet 3 gren squad with an LMG is beastly and can take on almost any infantry unit, particularly when kept behind cover and at long range.

The common factor that remains the same the entire game is that Axis infantry are generally (not all of them, but most) more effective from long range and Allied infantry are generally more effective up close. This is also one thing to consider when picking map vetos for your faction, as some maps are more "close ranged" like Stalingrad or "long ranged" like Crossing in the Woods.

Thank you very much guys! Pretty much everything I wanted to know!

Cheers!

Stolen from patch notes September 9th, 2014
http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/67-coh-2-changelog?p=98416#post98416

Grenadiers
Intended to excel at long range
Highest long range damage output for its tier
Abilities load out geared towards long range combat
Vulnerable at short range to all other unit types

Versus Conscripts
Advantaged at long ranges
Even at mid ranges
Disadvantaged at short ranges

Versus Riflemen
Slightly disadvantaged at long ranges
Disadvantaged at mid ranges
Disadvantaged at short ranges


Volksgrenadiers
Performs moderately well at long range combat
Extremely vulnerable at short range, moderately vulnerable at mid-range

Versus Riflemen
Disadvantaged at long ranges
Extremely disadvantaged at short-mid ranges

Versus Conscripts
Advantaged at long ranges
Disadvantaged at mid ranges
Disadvantaged at short ranges

Sturmpioneers
Excels at short-mid ranges
Vulnerable at long ranges

Versus Riflemen
Disadvantaged at long ranges
Advantaged at mid ranges
Advantaged at short ranges

Versus Conscripts
Disadvantaged at long ranges
Advantaged at mid ranges
Advantaged at short ranges


Conscripts
Performs modestly at mid to short range, does not excel at any range
Ability load out geared towards short-mid
Vulnerable to long range units

Versus Grenadiers
Disadvantaged at long ranges
Even at mid ranges
Advantaged at short ranges

Versus Sturmpioneers
Advantaged at long ranges
Disadvantaged at mid ranges
Disadvantaged at short ranges

Riflemen
Performs moderately at all ranges; excels against other rifled units at short-mid
Vulnerable at long ranges

Versus Grenadiers
Slightly advantaged at long ranges
Advantaged at mid ranges
Advantaged at short ranges

Versus Sturmpioneers
Advantaged at long ranges
Disadvantaged at mid ranges
Disadvantaged at short ranges

Thanks for that Elslayer. I've never seen that. Nothing particularly new per se, but still very helpful.

Another rule of thumb is to hug green cover in the early game. I know it sounds condescending but a lot of Allied players get into the mindset of early game zerging with their better close range troops. Also, you should find optimal pieces of green cover on each map. The truck near the Church on Kolodny Ferma, the ammo point tractor and lumber there, and the Ammo point tractor on Langreska also.

@ElSlayer - thx for the detailed post!

@MarcoRossolini - What ElSlayer made clear with his posting is that Volks loose against Rifles at all ranges. Thats "new", compared to your post, without wanting to sound ungrateful.

http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare
Here, it should provide you the info you want

http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare
Here, it should provide you the info you want

There is also another thing people need to take into consideration with this though. Its a great tool, but flat dps doesn't always mean everything. Take into account overall squad health and received accuracy. For example One squad may have more dps at a certain range but have 2 less men or something like that.

@ElSlayer - thx for the detailed post!

@MarcoRossolini - What ElSlayer made clear with his posting is that Volks loose against Rifles at all ranges. Thats "new", compared to your post, without wanting to sound ungrateful.

That's interesting because in my experience volks have the advantage at long range vs riflemen. But maybe they were nerfed last patch, I haven't played in a while.

That's interesting because in my experience volks have the advantage at long range vs riflemen. But maybe they were nerfed last patch, I haven't played in a while.

they might have a small one but in general they are least disadvantaged at long range.

they might have a small one but in general they are least disadvantaged at long range.

Perhaps RNG + user error then.

There is also another thing people need to take into consideration with this though. Its a great tool, but flat dps doesn't always mean everything. Take into account overall squad health and received accuracy. For example One squad may have more dps at a certain range but have 2 less men or something like that.

The main purpose of this tool, in it's current simplified form, is only to let people check optimal range for their infantry vs infantry fights (since weapon profile don't change, no matter how many effective HP a squad has, it's received accuracy or veterancy bonuses) not to check which squad would win in said fights.