Tiger and IS2

Really? There are a lot of whining threads about Demos and other allied stuff. I don't think people whine about OKW stuff anymore after the Obers issue was addressed

You cannot be more wrong. The whinings stopped because now OKW is close to shitty. But pre-patch, the number of OKW units tiers and weapons attacked in threads was huge, and some people deliberately forget. So let me provide you with the list (it's a long one):

Lmg34, Shrecks, KT, JLIs, Fallshirms, Obers, volks, sturmpios, raketenes (can you believe it?!?), kubel, panzerfusiliers, sdkfz AA, Puma, wurframen, IR halftruck (again, can you believe it?!?), ISG, Jagdpanzer (even now, there is a thread about "vehicle camo abilities being stupid" and the prior target it's no doubt the jagdpanzer), Panzer 2, T4 because of the flack gun. And I'm not sure I mentioned all of them.

Everything was "too effective", "to strong", "OP" etc, etc.

And we have the final product today, a nerfed to the gorund faction while most people here don't want to admit that soviets are OP like shit. There were in the past too, but OKW dared to stand ground and kick their OP asses. For a while. Except IR halftruck, every single unit above suffered changes and the big majority where not just changes but nerfs. From all these units, there were just few that really needed a decrease in their effectiveness these being the lmg34 OR Obers, not both, KT, sdkfz AA and Kubel.

Lmg34, Shrecks, KT, JLIs, Fallshirms, Obers, volks, sturmpios, raketenes (can you believe it?!?), kubel, panzerfusiliers, sdkfz AA, Puma, wurframen, IR halftruck (again, can you believe it?!?), ISG, Jagdpanzer (even now, there is a thread about "vehicle camo abilities being stupid" and the prior target it's no doubt the jagdpanzer), Panzer 2, T4 because of the flack gun. And I'm not sure I mentioned all of them.

The complaints were mostly on shreck blobs and lmg obers. I am sure there were complaints about the other stuff you mentioned, but the main problem was those units. If you read the intro to March 31 patch by by Corp.Shephard (http://www.coh2.org/news/32788/march-31st-patch) you will realize that OKW was not nerfed to the ground.

The problem I think is that a lot of OKW players had a high percentage coz of the meta that existed before the patch and thus they were playing against better players. Now they are finding it harder to win, I mean i have played 8 OKW games and I won seven doing the same thing.

The complaints were mostly on shreck blobs and lmg obers. I am sure there were complaints about the other stuff you mentioned, but the main problem was those units. If you read the intro to March 31 patch by by Corp.Shephard (http://www.coh2.org/news/32788/march-31st-patch) you will realize that OKW was not nerfed to the ground.

The problem I think is that a lot of OKW players had a high percentage coz of the meta that existed before the patch and thus they were playing against better players. Now they are finding it harder to win, I mean i have played 8 OKW games and I won seven doing the same thing.

And how many of those were against IS2's?

And how many of those were against IS2's?

given how IS-2 is meta against OKW?
Most I suspect.

Don't break the NDA, please (hint, hint) Follow -up citing breach also invised.

And how many of those were against IS2's?

I assume you realized that I was talking about the last patch. I however see that OKW players use similar tactics, with little alterations.

I don't think that in most cases that a Tiger or an IS2 changes a game. It just is a nail in the coffin

I assume you realized that I was talking about the last patch. I however see that OKW players use similar tactics, with little alterations.

That's not OKW players' fault. It's the faction. Cool units, bad design. In order to win, what you will use? A tactic that requires alot of micro and fragile units? No, you will blob as much as possible, you will rather wait for stronger units, while trying to hold the line, etc. This is why blobbing is so viable for OKW and life saving. What else can you do? (well, in the past, you actualy could, but the latest changes, issued to "balance" OKW made it even more depending on blobbing and the strongest units than before). Here's your answer.

That's not OKW players' fault. It's the faction. Cool units, bad design. In order to win, what you will use? A tactic that requires alot of micro and fragile units? No, you will blob as much as possible, you will rather wait for stronger units, while trying to hold the line, etc. This is why blobbing is so viable for OKW and life saving. What else can you do? (well, in the past, you actualy could, but the latest changes, issued to "balance" OKW made it even more depending on blobbing and the strongest units than before). Here's your answer.

I agree, and I also believe that blobbing is a valid tactic. But I think you can still blob and win as OKW, watch Paul's stream, but it's much riskier now.

What I meant was coz OKW blob was so good you could get good win percentages. Thus you were playing with higher ranked, maybe better skilled, Sov/US players, and winning. Now OKW isn't as potent, these players are finding it harder to win.

T34/76
T-70
Su-76
SU-85

^These units are supposed to form the backbone of the soviet lategame. Not only can you not have access to all of them at the same time, but not one of them (with the exception of the T70), is performing up to its cost.

The T34/76 is too expensive for what it gives you. It is a decent tank, but it is not worth 310mp and 100fu.

The SU-76 needs no introduction.

The Su-85 works well, but it needs an accuracy buff. It has a hard time hitting targets that are moving, and does even worse on the move (rotation counts as movement in game).

If the T34/76 and the SU85 came together, they would make more sense, but as independent "top tier" units for the soviets, they are not nearly good enough.

Again, apart from the SU-76 NOTHING on your List really underperforms. The 34/76 can arrive very early and take your enemy by surprise and you can build them in swarms and overrun your enemy. SU-85 does its job really well and the T70 fucks shit up left and right. Also you didnt even mention the Katyusha also a Soviet stock unit that does really well.

Again, apart from the SU-76 NOTHING on your List really underperforms. The 34/76 can arrive very early and take your enemy by surprise and you can build them in swarms and overrun your enemy. SU-85 does its job really well and the T70 fucks shit up left and right. Also you didnt even mention the Katyusha also a Soviet stock unit that does really well.

They were referring to the "lategame" effectiveness of the units, I'd pretty much agree with them on all of them save for the SU-85 - T-70's a bit of weird one since of course no light tanks are intended to be great lategame anyway, and it does have a very good scouting ability to prevent it being a waste of fuel if it lives anyway, but it's definitely not something to bank your lategame on.

Again, apart from the SU-76 NOTHING on your List really underperforms. The 34/76 can arrive very early and take your enemy by surprise and you can build them in swarms and overrun your enemy. SU-85 does its job really well and the T70 fucks shit up left and right. Also you didnt even mention the Katyusha also a Soviet stock unit that does really well.

The thing is that the T34/76 DOES underperform. Don't think of the tank itself, think of it in the context of soviet teching. If you go for T3, it is the heaviest tank you will get for the rest of the game. That is not a vehicle that you can really expect to win off of unless you have most of the map for the rest of the game, as you WILL lose some. In terms of armor swarming, it costs 310mp and 100fu, which is 40mp and 25fu less than a P4. That means that for every 4 P4s, you get a T34/76. That is not a numerical advantage worth having, since the P4 is not only a better tank to begin with, but it also scales better (armor bonus at vet 2, blitz). Not to mention that the price to tech to a P4 and the price to tech to a T34/76 is the same I believe.

The T70, as I stated before, is fine.

The SU85 is a good unit. I agree. It can counter medium armor very well. However, remember that we are looking at soviets in terms of lategame potential. If the Soviet player has su85s, and the axis player has a KT + panther or just 2 panthers, the Soviet player will be hard pressed to hold the line. Not only that, but the SU85s cannot chase, so killing armor is just about out of the question. \ But remember that going T4 means that you do not have access to a frontline AI unit. And if we are looking at soviets without callin meta doctrines, that means that you do not have a hard counter to lategame german infantry, such as Pfus, obers, falls, and lmg grens. Relying on conscripts won't do you any good, the only real way to have a chance is to have gone a penal heavy opening and gotten some vetted penals out, or to have good RNG with indirect fire. The SU85 should at least be able to hit targets, its accuracy is not good enough IMO. Not to mention that your entire lategame tier structure gets countered if your enemy gets a JT/ELE/Pak43.

I did not mention the Katyusha or the M5 halftrack because I am talking abut front line units that you will be structuring your army around. The katyusha is a good unit, but you cannot expect your frontline to stay together if you focus on building them. You need to put fuel towards units such as SU85s to protect your units. The M5 is in a similar boat. It is a good unit, but comes a little late, and is a support unit. It won't be killing units, and all it does is keep your conscripts/ support teams on the front line, since its AA upgrade is quite useless.

So please, tell me how the current soviet tech system is any good lategame? Both German factions have access to highly armored units (KT panther sturmpanzer) which allow them to survive in the lategame with their stock army. USF has the synergy between the M36 and that Sherman being in the same tier to make up for their weaknesses. WHat do soviets have?

Since blobbing as okw is a legitimate tactic then that means demos should never be touched Kappa

Since blobbing as okw is a legitimate tactic then that means demos should never be touched Kappa

hurr by that logic okw and ostheer should get demos to deal with rifle blobs.

hurr by that logic okw and ostheer should get demos to deal with rifle blobs.

daspouos suggested, Solomon-approved.

hurr by that logic okw and ostheer should get demos to deal with rifle blobs.

fair game I dont care if they get demos

The thing is that the T34/76 DOES underperform. Don't think of the tank itself, think of it in the context of soviet teching.

That's exactly the point. T34/76 can come fast, messing all oponent's line.

If you go for T3, it is the heaviest tank you will get for the rest of the game.

No shit. What about the call-ins that will suplement your T34/76s? You can confortably call an IS2, or 85s. Together with your 76 will win you the battle. As simple as that.

That is not a vehicle that you can really expect to win off of unless you have most of the map for the rest of the game, as you WILL lose some.

If you went early T34/76s then you better get that map control or consider playing other game....

In terms of armor swarming, it costs 310mp and 100fu, which is 40mp and 25fu less than a P4. That means that for every 4 P4s, you get a T34/76. That is not a numerical advantage worth having, since the P4 is not only a better tank to begin with, but it also scales better (armor bonus at vet 2, blitz). Not to mention that the price to tech to a P4 and the price to tech to a T34/76 is the same I believe.

Dunno, I was allways able to build more T34s than my opponent could build his P4s. And this is quite simple: the teching costs for ostheer + the fact that ostheer NEEDS SOME VEHICLE from T2 , the AC or at least the SDKFZ, it simply CANNOT PLAY WITHOUT ONE OF THOSE. That also, costs fuel. Not soviet's case. The idea is, as soviet, you can confortably build a T34 as your first vehicle. At this point, any Axis faction is way behind.

The SU85 is a good unit. I agree. It can counter medium armor very well. However, remember that we are looking at soviets in terms of lategame potential. If the Soviet player has su85s, and the axis player has a KT + panther or just 2 panthers, the Soviet player will be hard pressed to hold the line. Not only that, but the SU85s cannot chase, so killing armor is just about out of the question. \ But remember that going T4 means that you do not have access to a frontline AI unit. And if we are looking at soviets without callin meta doctrines, that means that you do not have a hard counter to lategame german infantry, such as Pfus, obers, falls, and lmg grens. Relying on conscripts won't do you any good, the only real way to have a chance is to have gone a penal heavy opening and gotten some vetted penals out, or to have good RNG with indirect fire. The SU85 should at least be able to hit targets, its accuracy is not good enough IMO. Not to mention that your entire lategame tier structure gets countered if your enemy gets a JT/ELE/Pak43.

Aren't you forgeting the call-ins again?

So please, tell me how the current soviet tech system is any good lategame?

Dunno, but maybe you can explain to me why OKW player is struggling in late game trying to hold the line with one Jagdpanzer against a su-85 and double T34/85s? Or with a KT against 4 T3485s?
How an ostheer player builds his first P4 way after the T34 lurked free on the map for several minutes? And so on....

That's exactly the point. T34/76 can come fast, messing all oponent's line.



No shit. What about the call-ins that will suplement your T34/76s? You can confortably call an IS2, or 85s. Together with your 76 will win you the battle. As simple as that.



If you went early T34/76s then you better get that map control or consider playing other game....



Dunno, I was allways able to build more T34s than my opponent could build his P4s. And this is quite simple: the teching costs for ostheer + the fact that ostheer NEEDS SOME VEHICLE from T2 , the AC or at least the SDKFZ, it simply CANNOT PLAY WITHOUT ONE OF THOSE. That also, costs fuel. Not soviet's case. The idea is, as soviet, you can confortably build a T34 as your first vehicle. At this point, any Axis faction is way behind.



Aren't you forgeting the call-ins again?



Dunno, but maybe you can explain to me why OKW player is struggling in late game trying to hold the line with one Jagdpanzer against a su-85 and double T34/85s? Or with a KT against 4 T3485s?
How an ostheer player builds his first P4 way after the T34 lurked free on the map for several minutes? And so on....

I don't think you have been paying attention to this thread. The point was explaining why the callin meta is such a big problem in the game, and the reason why the IS2 is designed as a more survivable tank than the tiger.

If you assume no callins, you see why soviets are so weak in game. Their core army CANNOT stand on its own legs lategame, and that is why callin tanks are a requirement for soviet players in all gamemodes.

If you assume no callins, you see why soviets are so weak in game. Their core army CANNOT stand on its own legs lategame, and that is why callin tanks are a requirement for soviet players in all gamemodes.

Then we are speaking about an ideal situation that happens in a fairy land but not in COH2. 'Cause TODAY soviet core army + callins > any axis core army + callins.

If we are to consider only the core armies I can see your point, except T34 rush is a good tactic and it can win you the game if you don't screw it up. But nothing will be the same again I heard so I am waiting - like the others - the next patch that is currently alpha tested.

Dunno, but maybe you can explain to me why OKW player is struggling in late game trying to hold the line with one Jagdpanzer against a su-85 and double T34/85s? Or with a KT against 4 T3485s?
How an ostheer player builds his first P4 way after the T34 lurked free on the map for several minutes? And so on....

Erm, get a panther?

Then we are speaking about an ideal situation that happens in a fairy land but not in COH2. 'Cause TODAY soviet core army + callins > any axis core army + callins.

If we are to consider only the core armies I can see your point, except T34 rush is a good tactic and it can win you the game if you don't screw it up. But nothing will be the same again I heard so I am waiting - like the others - the next patch that is currently alpha tested.

Thats just it, we are discussing the core army only, because it shows us that any changes done to the callins will cause soviets to plummet to the worst army.

The Soviet core needs a revamp, and callins are not a reason to say otherwise.

Also, you should try T70 rushing. It is much more effective and doesn't cost as much fuel.