No tech demo just poor design.

The idea for every nerf or removal there needs to be a buff is insane and stupid and has no bearing on Relic's history at all. We have seen a constant nerf to OKW's early game since WFA release and see no buffs or changes at all to help it.

The issue with Demo Charges is that they punish smart players AND stupid players. 1 demo to instant gib a single squad with Vet and an upgrade is excellent. 1 dead Vet 2-3 gren with a LMG42 is an excellent trade for 90 munitions.

So yes, it does punish blobbers, but it also punishes people who makes use of spreading out squads around to map to cap and cut off people because 1. You can't spam Sturms OR Pio's, and 2. You can't spam the upgrade either.

Mine detection for Axis is neither cheap nor plentiful, making demo charges a very large issue even in higher skill modes.

The increasing of OKW's munition income, and Kubel buff would disagree with your first statement.

1 vetted gren squad with an lmg is a perfectly good trade, its a fine use of a Demo. I watch a lot of high level play and demos do not supremely punish any of them. They might take a loss here and there but they are never utterly devastated like lower tier players whom loose a lot to demos.

spreading out has its pros and cons, you have a higher chance of detecting a demo or mine and yet you also have a higher chance of missing a demo or mine depending one how far you are spread out.

You don't understand this game. Cons are not supposed to go head to head with Grens, the reason for this is that they are a T0 unit that requires absolutely no tech investment what-so-ever, so they are able to be spammed. Which completely negates your straw man argument that "cost difference is same or low enough to esnure numerical advantage does not make up for it."

If you know how to play this game, it's actually a viable strategy to spam 5-6 Cons and overwhelm Ostheer early with Molotovs, capping and flanking. Then before your opponent can think how to counter the cons spam, Shock Troops show up (non-stock unit) and they press the advantage you have gained early on by superior numbers. So, by saying that stock units are outclassed and do not scale shows me that you have absolutely no idea about this game or how to play it.

Penals are weak? You don't know how to use them then. Penals with flamers and Vet are more then a match for LMG Grens at any stage of the game. Even stock Penals vs Stock Grens Penals will win, if you know how to use them.

Clown Car and Flamer is weak? You don't know how to use them then.

Soviet Sniper is weak. It has two men and can easily counter snipe German sniper. You have to be a garbage player not to know this.

What about the T-70? It's a T3 Infantry and light vehicle counter that scales superbly with Vet. If you keep one of these alive it does a job on any lone Axis units trying to ninja cap. It's a very valuable unit.

What about Katyusha? It's weak and outclassed compared to Panzerwerfer?

As said before, your totally obvious blatant Soviet fanboy behaviour is obvious to everyone on these forums. Whenever anyone mentions anything about your beloved Soviets you jump to their defence with straw man arguments and when they get shot down, you resort to belittling and name calling like a two year old. Grow up.

Its been pretty well known that Soviets rely on call ins and gimmicks to win. This thread is a perfectly good example of that fact.

Soviet sniper got nerfed and cannot sprint, and has lower killing speed. The Ostheer one is way better now unless you are trying to counter snipe. One evident reason is that with the new health buff the Ostheer sniper lives quite a bit longer and survives situations that the Soviet sniper team would loose a man which is manpower bleed. They are not dead, but in an Ostheers similar situation there would be no loss at all.

Penals only win if you have no idea what you are doing and they get into their close range all the time to ruin your day. LMG gren blobs are way easier to play with and more effective all through out the game. They never have to leave their cozy cover to be effective which all Soviet combat units except guards have to.

I dont believe Katitof has said the M3 flamer is weak, however in the current meta it has an issue being effective because generally all they face are gren blobs or OKW. in the OKW case you have a great time for a bit until the first shreck comes out. They also have a 30 muni mine to counter them, and a T0 anti tank team.

Speaking of which you seem to be upset about cons being an effective early game unit with no tech requirements. OKW would like to say hi

Its been pretty well known that Soviets rely on call ins and gimmicks to win. This thread is a perfectly good example of that fact.

Soviet sniper got nerfed and cannot sprint, and has lower killing speed. The Ostheer one is way better now unless you are trying to counter snipe. One evident reason is that with the new health buff the Ostheer sniper lives quite a bit longer and survives situations that the Soviet sniper team would loose a man which is manpower bleed. They are not dead, but in an Ostheers similar situation there would be no loss at all.

Penals only win if you have no idea what you are doing and they get into their close range all the time to ruin your day. LMG gren blobs are way easier to play with and more effective all through out the game. They never have to leave their cozy cover to be effective which all Soviet combat units except guards have to.

I dont believe Katitof has said the M3 flamer is weak, however in the current meta it has an issue being effective because generally all they face are gren blobs or OKW. in the OKW case you have a great time for a bit until the first shreck comes out. They also have a 30 muni mine to counter them, and a T0 anti tank team.

Speaking of which you seem to be upset about cons being an effective early game unit with no tech requirements. OKW would like to say hi

Everyone knows that Bears are Soviet fanboys, so your comments are pretty weak. Also, Katitof said all Sov stock units are weak, outclassed by axis counterparts and do not scale well? Pretty sure that includes the M3.

The increasing of OKW's munition income, and Kubel buff would disagree with your first statement.

1 vetted gren squad with an lmg is a perfectly good trade, its a fine use of a Demo. I watch a lot of high level play and demos do not supremely punish any of them. They might take a loss here and there but they are never utterly devastated like lower tier players whom loose a lot to demos.

spreading out has its pros and cons, you have a higher chance of detecting a demo or mine and yet you also have a higher chance of missing a demo or mine depending one how far you are spread out.

I said it was a good trade, but OKW's munition increase wasn't new game focused at all and doesn't arguably make up for the rest of nerfs OKW received over time.

Speaking of which you seem to be upset about cons being an effective early game unit with no tech requirements. OKW would like to say hi

Every starting unit in the game is better than Volks, so this really isn't an argument.

Pretty sure that includes the M3.

I don't really think it has an Axis counterpart. Closest is 250 HT, and having a CP requirement on that one makes for a world of difference in practice.

And then you could say they aren't actually counterparts since M3A1s can shoot while 250s can't...

Also, Katitof said all Sov stock units are weak, outclassed by axis counterparts

he is correct for the most part

Demos must require a squad nearby to activate the charge like in real life and can't be laid in open red or yellow cover.
Right now demo auto activate is like mines which isn't reality.Mines can auto burst,demos had to be manually activated.

2 THINGS:
As someone just said before, demos should have a 3 second countdown after detonation.
Vet 2 engineers are required to plant demos. (We can make it harsher by requiring sweeper upgrade, therefore no flamers.)
Any better suggestions?

You don't understand this game. Cons are not supposed to go head to head with Grens, the reason for this is that they are a T0 unit that requires absolutely no tech investment what-so-ever, so they are able to be spammed. Which completely negates your straw man argument that "cost difference is same or low enough to esnure numerical advantage does not make up for it."

If you know how to play this game, it's actually a viable strategy to spam 5-6 Cons and overwhelm Ostheer early with Molotovs, capping and flanking. Then before your opponent can think how to counter the cons spam, Shock Troops show up (non-stock unit) and they press the advantage you have gained early on by superior numbers. So, by saying that stock units are outclassed and do not scale shows me that you have absolutely no idea about this game or how to play it.

Penals are weak? You don't know how to use them then. Penals with flamers and Vet are more then a match for LMG Grens at any stage of the game. Even stock Penals vs Stock Grens Penals will win, if you know how to use them.

Clown Car and Flamer is weak? You don't know how to use them then.

Soviet Sniper is weak. It has two men and can easily counter snipe German sniper. You have to be a garbage player not to know this.

What about the T-70? It's a T3 Infantry and light vehicle counter that scales superbly with Vet. If you keep one of these alive it does a job on any lone Axis units trying to ninja cap. It's a very valuable unit.

What about Katyusha? It's weak and outclassed compared to Panzerwerfer?

As said before, your totally obvious blatant Soviet fanboy behaviour is obvious to everyone on these forums. Whenever anyone mentions anything about your beloved Soviets you jump to their defence with straw man arguments and when they get shot down, you resort to belittling and name calling like a two year old. Grow up.

I agree 100%. Katiof, nearly every thread you are trying to defend Soviets NO MATTER WHAT. If you can actually be in BOTH Axis and Allies players' shoes when making posts, and try not to be too aggressive when making your points, you would have every players' respect in the community.

Demos are powerful, and I'm no high level player with only about 250 hours in game, but have any of you heard of side stepping? Demos are often placed inf ront of a VP or on a track in such a position that a unit's pathing takes it into it, so I tend to cap a point at the very edge of the sector in a place where he opponent cannot predict I will cap from. It's not the be all and end all to demos, but I can avoid a good few by doing so and thus waste those 90 munitions.

Dealing with asymmetrical faction balance is always going to be tricky when you consider the wipe potential of demo charges, but then Soviets don't have teller mines or mine fields, so all in all it's just about adapting to who has what toys to play with.

The idea for every nerf or removal there needs to be a buff is insane and stupid and has no bearing on Relic's history at all. We have seen a constant nerf to OKW's early game since WFA release and see no buffs or changes at all to help it.

The issue with Demo Charges is that they punish smart players AND stupid players. 1 demo to instant gib a single squad with Vet and an upgrade is excellent. 1 dead Vet 2-3 gren with a LMG42 is an excellent trade for 90 munitions.

So yes, it does punish blobbers, but it also punishes people who makes use of spreading out squads around to map to cap and cut off people because 1. You can't spam Sturms OR Pio's, and 2. You can't spam the upgrade either.

Mine detection for Axis is neither cheap nor plentiful, making demo charges a very large issue even in higher skill modes.

The JPIV's biggest weakness is it's extremely poor mobility, while the Jackson is far more mobile. The two tanks are the exact opposite of each other. Before the Jackson had a weakness; low pen and thin armor. One of those weakness's was totally taken away so now the JPIV has lower pen, lower damage, and much much lower mobility.

The Jackson for cost is far more effective than the JPIV, but the JPIV is all OKW has so that's why you see it more than you used to. (If you count the reduced fuel income the JPIV is 204 fuel).

Nobody is asking for the Jackson to be put back to it's old state, I would be very very happy to see it just get 160 damage and have the USF AT gun get a large buff and the zook get a large buff. USF needs more diverse AT.

Someone finally quotes one of Alex's many contradictions to his own statements, Hero of Soviet Union.

I dont believe Katitof has said the M3 flamer is weak, however in the current meta it has an issue being effective because generally all they face are gren blobs or OKW. in the OKW case you have a great time for a bit until the first shreck comes out. They also have a 30 muni mine to counter them, and a T0 anti tank team.

Speaking of which you seem to be upset about cons being an effective early game unit with no tech requirements. OKW would like to say hi

About the M3 flamer and OKW:

Yes, you can field a t0 AT weapon but this leaves you with less offensive power and forces you to chase around to get the HT. Meanwhile you are losing map control because you don't have enough infantry and also can't go harrassing deep into enemy territory because the flamer HT can wipe on retreat very easily.


It takes two shrek hits to kill it and if you lay a mine you have to pray it goes over it PLUS you will wait longer for your shrek.

I hope you will play as many games as OKW as I have where you are up against flamer in HT deleting your squads and keeping you penned in one area and struggling badly for resources.



Then add to that the fact that when you do get rid of it with a puma (again AT unit leaving you with less AI) you go harrassing with single units (like soviets can do) and lose units to demo charges.

Everyone knows that Bears are Soviet fanboys, so your comments are pretty weak. Also, Katitof said all Sov stock units are weak, outclassed by axis counterparts and do not scale well? Pretty sure that includes the M3.

Have you ever seen an M3 passed the 12 minute mark doing anything other than being a taxi?

no? I didnt think so, thats called not scaling.

As for your "bears are soviet fanboys" we have plenty of players who prefer USF more, however most of us play at whatever is convenient.

Axis had much needed nerfs, and as the most active clan in the game during the drought of change before the last patch we came out as allies favored. This is pretty situational though, because it was only really Axis at the time that needed to be toned down.

Not that there are not a hand full of changes needed against allies, its just the biggest issues at the time were all centered around OKW

About the M3 flamer and OKW:

Yes, you can field a t0 AT weapon but this leaves you with less offensive power and forces you to chase around to get the HT. Meanwhile you are losing map control because you don't have enough infantry and also can't go harrassing deep into enemy territory because the flamer HT can wipe on retreat very easily.


It takes two shrek hits to kill it and if you lay a mine you have to pray it goes over it PLUS you will wait longer for your shrek.

I hope you will play as many games as OKW as I have where you are up against flamer in HT deleting your squads and keeping you penned in one area and struggling badly for resources.



Then add to that the fact that when you do get rid of it with a puma (again AT unit leaving you with less AI) you go harrassing with single units (like soviets can do) and lose units to demo charges.

Better players leave little to chance and bait. It is one of the hallmarks of better players and why Soviet mines are so effective for their cost. You see Ostheer players also doing the same with Tellers and the USF meta (liutenant into fast Sherman) baiting into M20 mines while they stall for the Sherman.

the baiting goes really well with OKW, if an M3 is on the field and you get a reketenwerfer dont throw it on the front lines, keep it back out of sight so when the M3 does come in to "delete" your squads, it runs into a max range AT gun and will have to pull back into a sight blocker.

I said it was a good trade, but OKW's munition increase wasn't new game focused at all and doesn't arguably make up for the rest of nerfs OKW received over time.



Every starting unit in the game is better than Volks, so this really isn't an argument.


Oh so the full munitions OKW buff which was reverted immediately because it was OP doesnt count either? Stop crying that OKW only got nerfed because it simply isnt true.

also no, not every starting unit in the game is better than volks. Even early on it isnt true simply because they can bully CE and RE squads away on their own. Of course they are weaker than stock infantry, but as the game progresses it becomes less and less apparent because of all the cool veterancy bonuses they get, as well as being able to scare off tanks on their own which only Rifles can even attempt should they choose to go zooks rather than BARs or M1919s (lol). Price only can do it with Rifle company because he can also upgrade flamers.

Volks are arguably the best infantry in the game due to their scaling nature which no other faction can mimic. It is just not seen by average players as much because many of their games are losses under 8 minutes where they died to Rifle prowers or Soviet early gimmicks.

However it is easily seen in the higher game modes where the late game comes super early and the volks vet up very quickly from all the shreck damage. hence why volks blobs were a thing, and until recently con blobs and penal blobs were not.

A lot of abilities and explosive rounds lead to instant (or nearly instant) squad wipes with little counter-play available.

At this point, I think it's better to just consider them part of the game. Compared to vCoh, losing a squad isn't that big a deal anyways. Especially early on, when your pop cap isn't very high.

I'd also be willing to bet that demos aren't even the most cost-efficient of squad wiping methods. Rifle nade probably wins that title handily.

Unit spacing (if it ever gets addressed) will mitigate many of these instagib problems. Until then, demos are just one more notch on the long list of annoying Relic things.

Blob harder.

Better players leave little to chance and bait. It is one of the hallmarks of better players and why Soviet mines are so effective for their cost. You see Ostheer players also doing the same with Tellers and the USF meta (liutenant into fast Sherman) baiting into M20 mines while they stall for the Sherman.

the baiting goes really well with OKW, if an M3 is on the field and you get a reketenwerfer dont throw it on the front lines, keep it back out of sight so when the M3 does come in to "delete" your squads, it runs into a max range AT gun and will have to pull back into a sight blocker.

You're describing an ideal situation. I keep my raketens back but the problem I raised of them needing 2 shotsstill remains.

You didn't offer an answer about the question of having to spend MP on an AT unit early game when you need infantry very badly. Imagine your third unit had to be a Zis.


Please post a replay of you doing this to other players of your level. Though I feel like you're mostly making it up and actually haven't done it much yourself.

You're describing an ideal situation. I keep my raketens back but the problem I raised of them needing 2 shotsstill remains.

You didn't offer an answer about the question of having to spend MP on an AT unit early game when you need infantry very badly. Imagine your third unit had to be a Zis.


Please post a replay of you doing this to other players of your level. Though I feel like you're mostly making it up and actually haven't done it much yourself.

So what if you have to spend mp on a unit to counter another? thats kind of how RTS's go. Thats like whining about loosing to Roaches in SCII when all you did was spam marines.

Here is the scope of which you are missing:

Soviet player spends resources on tech structure with little scaling (notice how snipers are literally the only unit out of this structure that has meaningful impact passed the 12 minute mark) and then buys a taxi for early wipes that cost fuel as well as manpower. Just like a kubel, an M3 is an early investment and if it does not manage to do anything meaning full they have literally been a waste. Kubels are esssentially dead after the 6 minute mark when other counters are about the map. Its the same principle, an M3 helps gain an early advantage that has to do work, other wise all it did was put the Soviet player behind.

With that in mind, Why is it such a huge deal to build a well scaling AT gun in the begining? its not like it will be utterly useless after the M3 dies unlike the M3 and the Kubel.

Of course you need infantry, but after the Kubel is delt with the game will be pretty even and even gain you a lead because the fuel put into the M3 will make it harder for them to counter an early Flack halftrack or luchs (I mean, its not like Soviets have Panzershrecks to push away armor)