How do you use PG's?

With respect Tybo, I just glanced through the game, but it doesn't seem to end well for you!

I presume, it came down to tech and you ended up stalling after T2, that is also something I struggle mightily in at least a third of the games I play. I end up undecided whether I have the time for tech and the pressure on the map to hold my fuel, and whether i'll actually receive any equity from tech, or to go for a tiger/ferdinand. I can never seem to analyze the situation correctly during battle.

Oh no, not at all. I'm only a mediocre player, I just thought it was a cool use of panzer grens. I didn't even submit that game :x

I always fail to tech quick enough as ostheer and I don't have a prescribed idea of what to build in my head like I do with soviets so my timing is bad. Manpower is always a sticking point as ost for me, hence why the cost of PGs is unappealing.

Another point I forgot to make: PGs work well paired with an lmg gren squad - few units can outshoot them at range, and PGs will make it difficult to close. Don't be tempted to put PGs in front though, keep them behind slightly to react to an encounter when possible. In my experience enemies will always target the closest unit first time they engage and keep shooting them until they can't (unless the player gives them a manual target order) so getting them to shoot at grens first while PGs position to cover is ideal. Losing guys from an lmg gren squad is cheaper and won't drop your DPS as heavily as losing a PG.

I could be wrong on that, I'd have to double check how unit AI works before human input.

I use them mainly as a AT support weapon. I build them every game as they're so useful. Even with the schreck nerf (which as an Ostheer player even I think was reasonable and was needed to buff allies, particularly the Americans), they're the best AT Infantry unit in the game. put them in cover and have the enemy charge into you. I don't think they become a shocks troops assault type unit until they get vet3 and armor but by then usually I've upgraded them with schrecks for countering mid-late game allied armor and hurt their AI ability so bad (due to replacing 2 STG44's with schrecks) that they're only good for decrewing support weapons and destroying the support weapon so it doesn't fall back into enemy hands.

Hold off on upgrading them with schrecks until your opponent has started spamming vehicles/tanks. Their STG44's are decent to bleed Allied Infantry blobs and cover flanks from infantry rushes for early-mid game AI if you keep them in cover until you need AT weapons.

I often have rounds where my Pgrens do by far the most damage, more than panther tanks, or tiger tanks or any other unit I field because the schreck is such a great Infantry AT weapon, even killed some IS2's with it if u hit the rear armor (try saying the same for a PTS AT Rifle).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does coh2-stats say that their Schreck does MORE damage, like twice as much, up close than from far away? I'm gonna double check that but that may be why my Pgrens damage is far higher than any other infantry unit I field in the game because I get as close as possible to the target prior to firing off my schreck rounds.

Right now the best way I can recommend to use them is to hide them behind an object so they're not in your enemy's LOS, wait for the vehicle/tank to roll past them and fire off 4 schreck shots into the rear armor. It often is enough to kill a T34 or M36 Jackson.

Also they're good for cutting off the retreat path of say a pesky soviet sniper thats retreating if you keep them hidden and behind enemy lines.

Try not to lose too many men in their squads, you'll bleed manpower and they take a long time to reinforce, keep them out of harms way until the situation calls for them, similar to other support weapons like the StuG, Flamenwerfer halftrack or Pak40.

THe other way I use them is to have my tanks push forward, when they run into AT resistance from enemy tanks, have them reverse back. Often enough the Allied tank will chase to try and destroy my panther/tiger or whatever and I charge up close with the Pgrens and get 4 schreck shots into their armor. These 2 tactics are extremely effective at countering armor with Pgrens.

In conjunction with the Grens Panzerfaust ability, Germans have the best Infantry units for hard countering allied armor, none of the allied infantry can hard counter axis armor nearly as good as a Gren Panzerfaust damaging the engine and Pgrens closing in with schrecks to finish it off.

One last great thing about Pgrens, is with schrecks using my tactics, for me they're about the easiest unit in the game to get up to vet3 in the shortest amount of time possible. My Pgrens make vet2 and vet3 almost every game If I'm keeping one Pgren for AI purposes and one for AT purposes because I don't need a lot of AT for, for example just countering Allied Vehicle spam coming from the Americans, I upgrade the squad with the least amount of experience with schrecks first because it'll pass the more experienced squad in veterancy shortly.

One last thing, never pick up weapons with Pgrens. Have your Grens pick up weapons. Grens need to be used mainly for AI, and Pgrens with schrecks are all but purely an AT weapon.

A great post on the AT capability of PzGrens, thanks, I love the idea of trapping with them, and something I didn't think about being too used to CoH1 and volks.

I just wish I had the ammo kicking around to kit them out with them. I never seem to have enough! And maybe I've also been spooked too many times by HE Shermans and IS2's to be all that jazzed about investing that heavily in a squad that could very well vanish if I'm not endowing 100% of my attention to them.

I suppose I can certainly appreciate that versatility. Maybe an option to "holster" the shreks in the future would really make them appealing as a multi-purpose unit.

I just wish I had the ammo kicking around to kit them out with them. I never seem to have enough! And maybe I've also been spooked too many times by HE Shermans and IS2's to be all that jazzed about investing that heavily in a squad that could very well vanish if I'm not endowing 100% of my attention to them.

I suppose I can certainly appreciate that versatility. Maybe an option to "holster" the shreks in the future would really make them appealing as a multi-purpose unit.

http://www.coh2-stats.com/ballistic_weapons

I just looked up the numbers, and I can't say that the schreck does more "damage" up close vs far away, however it appears to get a small penetration bonus for firing up close vs far away, I imagine the scatter is reduced close or it's "more accurate" and coh2stats says that it's "DPS" is significantly higher at a close range than a far range. What this says to me is getting as close as you possibly can before getting your schreck shot off is the best way to use them as an AT weapon. I usually close in til the Allied tank/vehicle starts hitting reverse, thats when I get my schreck shots off.

I just wish I had the ammo kicking around to kit them out with them. I never seem to have enough! And maybe I've also been spooked too many times by HE Shermans and IS2's to be all that jazzed about investing that heavily in a squad that could very well vanish if I'm not endowing 100% of my attention to them.

I suppose I can certainly appreciate that versatility. Maybe an option to "holster" the shreks in the future would really make them appealing as a multi-purpose unit.

If you need ANti-Infantry in a round, I'd rather build a grenadier squad than a Pgren squad. Pgren's AI ability is mediocre and worthless at any range higher than mid. I usually build them with the full intention of upgrading them with panzerschrecks eventually. Hold off on your grens Panzerfausts and Riflegrenades if need be to save for upgrading them with panzerschrecks.

They do well at attacking penals while staying outside of their flamethrower range I'll give them that much. Thats one of the few 1v1 infantry battles in the game where Pgrens hold their own. Most squads equipped with rifles will dominate pgrens in any given situation except if they're charging a pgren squad and while the pgren squad is in cover. I also think their accuracy with the STG44 shoots up dramatically if the Pgrens aren't moving, so if you need a squadwipe, hit "S" on your keyboard after you've gotten in range and let them do all the work.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread. What is the best way to assault a position as the Wehrmacht? Just thinking here aloud, I can't come up with a hypothesis as the best way to spearhead an assault. Trying to dislodge your enemy via weight of fire only seems to work with the 250/7 or rolling hot dice with the Grw 34.

I have a pretty effective tactic. FOr the most part in my games I do gren/gren/gren/sniper for my opening build. Flamethrower Pioneers I only do if I'm not facing a soviet since Soviets have those stupid demo charges that can squad wipe 2 squads at the same time.

Whether the enemy is in cover or over open terrain, engage them at long range with the grens, and if they're in cover, have the sniper behind the screen of grens picking off the allies from beyond their weapons ranges. Seems to work extremely effectively for me without having to spend muni on gimmicks like the rifle grenade or upgrading my pio with flamethrowers and being at the mercy of the SOviet player NOT spamming mines and satchels. I spam the Attack Move feature or "A" button on my keyboard a lot as this allows my units to effortlessly to start firing on enemy positions at their maximum range. Seems to be the kinds of engagements my grens and sniper excel the most at.

edit: Also when the Conscript/American GI squad runs up to throw the Molotov/Grenade, DON'T SIT IN THE GRENADE/MOLOTOV WHILE IT GOES OFF. That will save you A LOT of squad wipes.

All true. But most of the mentioned things can be done by GIs with the same results. I love suggestions such as keep them in cover. Opposite armies can keep units in cover as well. To me a unit which has to be kept in cover to be useful shouldnt be so expensive and definitely shouldnt require tech. All in all they are useful only when U are a better player than Ur opponent. Skilled players wont let U use them in such preplanned conditions. They will force them to retreat and finish the squad on the run. If U keep them in cover U will be wasting lots of manpower doing nothing for too long. Just remember that as wehr U have to tech and U have fewer units on the field. One more unit waiting in cover waiting means Ur opponent can atyack somewhere else. Basically ost ost is terribly underperforming and players only hope to find magic solutions to serious balance problems.

Whilst I am by no means a top player and maybe only just an intermediate one at best, I find a double Pioneer start into two Grenadiers and an MG42 works quite well as supprot for Panzer Grenadiers. One Pioneer squad will spend most of the game recapping territory lost close to base, buildign, repairing, recrewing, whilst the other will be out laying mines and taking bullets for your Panzer Grenadiers.

The thing to do is never engage army on army because you will probably be in a worse position, so engage the isolated squads and pick off members at range to gain veterancy. It requires you to have good unit preservation but it can work because the map will quickly fall into your hands when executed properly. Scout cars act as nice bait as well to those over eager Conscripts and Veteran Riflemen to draw them into waiting Panzer Grenadiers.

All true. But most of the mentioned things can be done by GIs with the same results. I love suggestions such as keep them in cover. Opposite armies can keep units in cover as well. To me a unit which has to be kept in cover to be useful shouldnt be so expensive and definitely shouldnt require tech. All in all they are useful only when U are a better player than Ur opponent. Skilled players wont let U use them in such preplanned conditions. They will force them to retreat and finish the squad on the run. If U keep them in cover U will be wasting lots of manpower doing nothing for too long. Just remember that as wehr U have to tech and U have fewer units on the field. One more unit waiting in cover waiting means Ur opponent can atyack somewhere else. Basically ost ost is terribly underperforming and players only hope to find magic solutions to serious balance problems.

I don't think people mean camp them in green cover, I think it means take and use cover skillfully.

pgrens perform just fine.
They aren't shocks.

They have LMG gren DPS at long range and twice the damage of them at mid range. Which beats all infantry except double bar rifles and Guards/shocks.

Assuming the pgrens are unsupported which should never happen. If supported they beat everything thrown at them.

All true. But most of the mentioned things can be done by GIs with the same results. I love suggestions such as keep them in cover. Opposite armies can keep units in cover as well. To me a unit which has to be kept in cover to be useful shouldnt be so expensive and definitely shouldnt require tech. All in all they are useful only when U are a better player than Ur opponent. Skilled players wont let U use them in such preplanned conditions. They will force them to retreat and finish the squad on the run. If U keep them in cover U will be wasting lots of manpower doing nothing for too long. Just remember that as wehr U have to tech and U have fewer units on the field. One more unit waiting in cover waiting means Ur opponent can atyack somewhere else. Basically ost ost is terribly underperforming and players only hope to find magic solutions to serious balance problems.

Ost Ost underperforming? Lol. All games I did Ost Ost resulted in a win. Or it's your quality of stupidity to lose games. Ost is far easier than OKW

I understand every argument. Still, my opinion is that they are really fragile and you have to be much more super careful with them compared to other elite infantry. They excell in certain situations but not in as many as pure spam of GIs. Game skills are of course important but I really think that balancing an army with 4 man squads is difficult. Very often random performance of pzgrens or squad wipes etc that happen to them, make them very difficult to use. These are all facts. And I'm not as stupid as U assume. Actually U shouldn't be calling anybody like that.

Mini tip: if Im setting up a defensive position, I often like to get a forward command bunker for reinforcing rather than a half track, mainly because its more durable and cant be taken out too quickly by a raid of tanks. I will then keep MGs and paks around it with tellars protecting likely tank paths.

In this situation, Shrek PGs can work nicely INSIDE the bunker, this makes it very nasty for tanks which try to flank the pak(s). Now the PGs cant be pushed, or ran over (favoured tactics), and they get the added cover. Meaning they can concentrate on firing their shreks off. Only good counter to this if your MGs and grens keep their inf back is indirect fire or offmap strikes like flame arty.

Ost Ost underperforming? Lol. All games I did Ost Ost resulted in a win. Or it's your quality of stupidity to lose games. Ost is far easier than OKW

I think thats a matter of opinion and playstyle. I find okw easier to play especially for new players.

Usually it was different, but after the patch is is 90% win with ost. OKW got nerfed too hard unfortunatly.

gentleman.
can we please stick to strategic discussion of pg use?
this isn't about perceived imbalance.

OT, I personally think they excell in mid-range while they're in cover. Therefor I never charge in with them, since they drop as little Kitty kats.

My favourite use for them is to pick a dropped bar or lmg. Then you have a possibility to buy just one shreck. Its enough to scare vehicles and they don't lose anti inf capabilities. Also when a squad wipe happens U don't feel than negative about losing 120 muniton investment and all your pak cover (which I believe is one of the biggest problems with them - often a full heath squad gets killed wihout having done anything significant with its 2 shrecks) . Having 2 squads like that is great and makes them much more versatile. Add a pack behind and its nice. I'd love to see a change that would allow to buy one shreck for them at a time. It would be a player's decision whether to buy one or two shrecks.

Mostly of the time I don't upgrade them, since they're too fragile to have Schreks. It'll end up in losing 120 ammo to nothing. Have to tell that the bunker solution can help with that problem. But Paks do the job better.

Paks by far do the job better, at range. But paks are very vulnerable to getting rushed and flanked, esspecially by multiple medium tanks. Thats why shreks exist. Because if you have them in a building or bunker, or uncrushable cover, they are going to win you that engagement.

I just played a couple games like this and can confirm: off map loves you when you play like this.