Balance of power has shifted to Allies in 4v4AT (imo)

Yes, cause Panthers, Pz4 horde, Jadgpanzers cannot win agasint IS2, ISU ot T34/85

In teamgames T4 price for OST does not matter.

OKW has conversion.

I mean... You are just retarded. There no point taking with you. You don't see this? Everyone here agrees about something, most of them are player with bigger experience than you, yet you are totally different and try to negate everything. It's just to much for me to handle this tons of pudding.

And by the way, Aerohank must be shitty player since he's teching with Ostheer in 1v1 to get a Panther almost always.

Yes they can, the same way you can win versus KTs, and assorted heavies using SU-85's and whatnot, but it is far, far, FAR from optimal. You will be fighting an uphill battle the entire time.

OKW's conversion isn't the same as caches, since your losing a map dependent resource to get more of another, rather than using a non-map dependent resource like MP to get more income.

Ost T4 price absolutely does, as the limit factor is MP, of which you will be spending more on caches.

And uh, I'm not disagreeing that much with the original post anyway, more or less just nitpicking the fact he didn't mention any of the things allies have up their sleeve.

And uh, I'm not disagreeing that much with the original post anyway, more or less just nitpicking the fact he didn't mention any of the things allies have up their sleeve.

I got tired of writing, it was a lot of words you know

...Alex you're aware both OKW and Ostheer stock is perfectly capable of handling anything available to either of the Allies, at all.

The IS2 isn't even that great - a Panther will slap the shit out of it generally. It will certainly be sending it back to base for repairs after any fight. Heck just bring some Pak40s, get some units up front to provide LoS and you'll be making IS2 usage very awkward indeed.

For OKW, Rakten's don't quite cut it true, but a large number of Shreks are capable of discouraging particularly brave use. Oh whats that on the horizon? Oh its a Panther! It even has an OK performance against infantry and with allied Infantry AT being 100% fucking pathetic: Getting a AT grenade to not bounce off a Panther is like getting ice to sink. Bazookas really don't fair much better and often players won't purchase them anyway because the BAR is a much more confident usage of munitions and weapon slots.

OKW also has access to the Jagdpanzer. I'm surprised its not seen all that much. Actually I'm fucking not. The reason I'm not surprised is because Shreks and Rakts are just fine, and its really not that long till you see a Panther if they're playing alright (and if you have an Ostheer building catches). Meanwhile, the Soviet equivalent, the SU85, fulfills a desperately needed role of "Mobile(ish) AT", which the ZiS-3 often can't cut because it just isn't mobile enough... and is vulnerable to Walking-Stuka.

So every Soviet player is essentially forced to go into a tier in which there is no general purpose tank (not that I would want a T34 anyway). Sure it has the Katyusha for anti-infantry but that's artillery, not a combat vehicle. And the SU76 is just complete rubbish.

Which then leads onto Doctrine dependence of Soviets.
Virtually every viable doctrine will include Shocktroops. Because they can actually sodding compete at all with Axis late game infantry without bleeding manpower like a 5 year old attempting to use a Ketchup bottle. They bring in no AT but at least they can be used to cover the retreat of your own vehicles if things get desperate, but really your other infantry options were not bringing all that much AT to the table anyway, so you might as well opt for an infantry thats worthwhile. The reason this is being brought up is that Soviet options are already limited by if they want infantry worth a damn (where the only alternatives are FwdHQ and PTRS blob, both of which tail off like heck late game without good skill with handling ZiS and SU85's.)

So, from doctrines including Shock troops and some sort of late-game viable unit, we have:
- IS2. It's a good tank no doubt, but it takes up just shy 1/4 of your pop cap, and is very vulnerable to Stock Axis units (can't say that about Jadgtiger, Elefant, Tiger(less so) and the KT).
- ISU152. Retard strong gun. Shame it's Armour isn't as thick as the buffoon of a driver handling this thing. AFAIK admittedly most players skip of this nowadays. Oh its even more expensive than the IS2.
- B4. As this argument is based around stock units of Axis, this is actually very good. In reality though CAS or any kind of "hand-of-god" will get rid of this. Heck Walking-Stuka is hardly a bad option.

And would you look at that I'm all out. We have 3 doctrines to pick from if you want a reliable AT that isn't the SU85 (or can be used to supplement it). Heck the best thing about the Shock-Motor Heavy is that it has precision strike - maybe their engine is damaged/destroyed so you can land that and kill a vehicle for a whopping 200 muni. Woop-dee-fucking doo.

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I got tired of writing, it was a lot of words you know

Ach, yeah. Tbh I like the way you structure your argument, and do admit that there is often a biased perspective due to the fact AT's always stop randoms.

I think a lot of people fail to utilize Allies true power in team games, which is a damn shame.

1. he never said allies dont have tools. he said axis synergises better. and did not assume that allies players were making dumb choices, he was pointing out how every choice allies players make have bigger risk. are you gonna infest this thread now too?

Not much risk in going Guard motor or Shock Rifle, elite infantry + the best call in's.

2. it is funny how it is ohme who keep making us, the crew, play germans when we just wanna play allies. please read then post and yes, you can come at it from "an assumption of weakness on the Allies part and assumption of strength on the Axis part." when you have a wall of text that actually back your statement up. unlike your thousands of posts ignoring facts, nitpicking facts and just enormous amount of ignorance to valid arguments put up against you.

I laid out my argument over several posts.

TLDR: Allies strengths are underused.

..Alex you're aware both OKW and Ostheer stock is perfectly capable of handling anything available to either of the Allies, at all.

The IS2 isn't even that great - a Panther will slap the shit out of it generally. It will certainly be sending it back to base for repairs after any fight. Heck just bring some Pak40s, get some units up front to provide LoS and you'll be making IS2 usage very awkward indeed.

For OKW, Rakten's don't quite cut it true, but a large number of Shreks are capable of discouraging particularly brave use. Oh whats that on the horizon? Oh its a Panther! It even has an OK performance against infantry and with allied Infantry AT being 100% fucking pathetic: Getting a AT grenade to not bounce off a Panther is like getting ice to sink. Bazookas really don't fair much better and often players won't purchase them anyway because the BAR is a much more confident usage of munitions and weapon slots.

OKW also has access to the Jagdpanzer. I'm surprised its not seen all that much. Actually I'm fucking not. The reason I'm not surprised is because Shreks and Rakts are just fine, and its really not that long till you see a Panther if they're playing alright (and if you have an Ostheer building catches). Meanwhile, the Soviet equivalent, the SU85, fulfills a desperately needed role of "Mobile(ish) AT", which the ZiS-3 often can't cut because it just isn't mobile enough... and is vulnerable to Walking-Stuka.

So every Soviet player is essentially forced to go into a tier in which there is no general purpose tank (not that I would want a T34 anyway). Sure it has the Katyusha for anti-infantry but that's artillery, not a combat vehicle. And the SU76 is just complete rubbish.

Which then leads onto Doctrine dependence of Soviets.
Virtually every viable doctrine will include Shocktroops. Because they can actually sodding compete at all with Axis late game infantry without bleeding manpower like a 5 year old attempting to use a Ketchup bottle. They bring in no AT but at least they can be used to cover the retreat of your own vehicles if things get desperate, but really your other infantry options were not bringing all that much AT to the table anyway, so you might as well opt for an infantry thats worthwhile. The reason this is being brought up is that Soviet options are already limited by if they want infantry worth a damn (where the only alternatives are FwdHQ and PTRS blob, both of which tail off like heck late game without good skill with handling ZiS and SU85's.)

So, from doctrines including Shock troops and some sort of late-game viable unit, we have:
- IS2. It's a good tank no doubt, but it takes up just shy 1/4 of your pop cap, and is very vulnerable to Stock Axis units (can't say that about Jadgtiger, Elefant, Tiger(less so) and the KT).
- ISU152. Retard strong gun. Shame it's Armour isn't as thick as the buffoon of a driver handling this thing. AFAIK admittedly most players skip of this nowadays. Oh its even more expensive than the IS2.
- B4. As this argument is based around stock units of Axis, this is actually very good. In reality though CAS or any kind of "hand-of-god" will get rid of this. Heck Walking-Stuka is hardly a bad option.

And would you look at that I'm all out. We have 3 doctrines to pick from if you want a reliable AT that isn't the SU85 (or can be used to supplement it). Heck the best thing about the Shock-Motor Heavy is that it has precision strike - maybe their engine is damaged/destroyed so you can land that and kill a vehicle for a whopping 200 muni. Woop-dee-fucking doo.

Uh, for one. The IS2 isn't shit versus the Panther at all, it had a decent chance to pen it frontally, has good speed to chase, and good reverse speed to get away. The chance to penetrate the IS2 with a Pak40 is about the same as the chance to pen a KT with a Zis gun.

And second, you don't need shock troops anymore, the guard buff makes them excellent which is why the Guard army commanders are so popular now.

Still waiting my Allied halo bonus units

...

1. I think a lot of people fail to utilize Allies true power in team games, which is a damn shame.



2. Not much risk in going Guard motor or Shock Rifle, elite infantry + the best call in's.



I laid out my argument over several posts.

TLDR: Allies strengths are underused.
...

1. i do not think you are in any capacity to tell anyone that. on paper v. in game very different.

2. yea.... ohme talks about the choices throughout the whole game, not just commanders. you've been nitpicking again haven't you?

Everyone here except Alex knows majority of the Soviet commanders are hardly competitive. You will see Lenny or Stephen try out random strategies here and there. We all know how most Allied games go; USF Airborne + EZ8s and SU goes Shock front line or Guards. As for Axis well, the commanders choice are just an icing on the cake as your stock units and all tech structures give me variety of choices.

1. i do not think you are in any capacity to tell anyone that. on paper v. in game very different.

2. yea.... ohme talks about the choices throughout the whole game, not just commanders. you've been nitpicking again haven't you?

I play AT's for 3's and 4's all the time dude. My clan is focused entirely around it. There is ton's of stuff Allied player don't do that would give them a big advantage.

And if were talking choices throughout the game it's not much, since your Soviet players will be skipping tech (with one usually making t4 for Kat's) to get very good units. It's not like they are paying much in effectiveness.

Ostheer does the same thing, t1 + t2 then hold for call in tanks.

Examples of things most players (because they are not very smart) do not do in team games:

1. Use smoke launchers on the Sherman to give cover to allied units
2. Make use of pop cap abuse, especially with Priests as they do not need to be crewed while waiting for barrage recharged
3. Dropping .50 cal's and AT guns for Soviet players to use
4. Supporting IS2's with Jacksons
5. decrewing tanks sitting around doing nothing in order to help repair friendly tanks
6. giving tanks to players with lots of unfilled popcap, thus reducing the amount of micro you need to personally do
7. Using focus sight on SU-85 or ISU in conjunction with Jacksons
8. Using mark target the same time as P-47's
9. Keeping medics out of their truck to allies can use their heals.
10. USF recon + soviet global abilities.

The list goes on, at higher levels Axis and Allies in team games are relatively balanced, but in randoms were nobody knows what the fuck then yes Axis has an advantage.

Everyone here except Alex knows majority of the Soviet commanders are hardly competitive. You will see Lenny or Stephen try out random strategies here and there. We all know how most Allied games go; USF Airborne + EZ8s and SU goes Shock front line or Guards. As for Axis well, the commanders choice are just an icing on the cake as your stock units and all tech structures give me variety of choices.

Guard motor
Shock motor
Counterattack tactics
Mechanized support
Shock rifle
Advanced Warfare
Terror Tactics
Shock Army

Honorable mention to Urban defense for 6 minute knock outs.

All in total 8 (9) viable commanders, which are literally more than OKW or USF even have.

Lets look at Ost;

Assault Support
CAS
Lighting war
Spearhead
Mechanized Assault
Luftwaffe support
Fortified Armor
Jeagar Armor

Honorable mention to Oustruppen and Mobile Defense.

All in total 8 (10), viable commanders.

Guard motor
Shock motor
Counterattack tactics
Mechanized support
Shock rifle
Advanced Warfare
Terror Tactics
Shock Army

While the rest are garbage because of no call ins or elite infantry, Ostheer can build Panther and LMG grens/PGs in every game. I rarely see Terror tactics and Advanced Warfare (more popular at lower levels) at 4 v 4s. The top most popular commanders in 4 v 4 are def shock frontline into IS2 or Guards mortar. B4 is slowly phasing away thanks CAS commander spam these days. The point is Allies have to make a selective choice into commanders, wrong decision has high consequences compare to Axis.

1. Use smoke launchers on the Sherman to give cover to allied units
2. Make use of pop cap abuse, especially with Priests as they do not need to be crewed while waiting for barrage recharged
3. Dropping .50 cal's and AT guns for Soviet players to use
4. Supporting IS2's with Jacksons
5. decrewing tanks sitting around doing nothing in order to help repair friendly tanks
6. giving tanks to players with lots of unfilled popcap, thus reducing the amount of micro you need to personally do
7. Using focus sight on SU-85 or ISU in conjunction with Jacksons
8. Using mark target the same time as P-47's
9. Keeping medics out of their truck to allies can use their heals.
10. USF recon + soviet global abilities.

And all of this Axis can do as well or do it better.

1. Smoke from mortar.
2. If your enemy is abusing pop cap you already have lost.
3. Wut
4. Stomped by KT/Tiger/Panther covered by Elephnat/Jadgtiger
5. Rep sation to repair friendly vehicles
6. Again, if you let enemy to abuse pop cap you already have lost.
7. Jadgpanzer can spot without losing mobility, periscops and amazing in teamgames ht searchlight which I would even call OP in 4v4.
8. And P47 are gone after first strafe due to Flat HT, also Panther can mark as well and JU strike is not worse than P47. Its even better.
9. Med truck, med bunkers.
10. CAS

And there are more Ostheer commanders for teamgames, like Joint Operation but you decided not to put it in.

You're also saying about IS2 and ISU yet you put commanders without them.

While the rest are garbage because of no call ins or elite infantry, Ostheer can build Panther and LMG grens/PGs in every game. I rarely see Terror tactics and Advanced Warfare (more popular at lower levels) at 4 v 4s. The top most popular commanders in 4 v 4 are def shock frontline into IS2 or Guards mortar. B4 is slowly phasing away thanks CAS commander spam these days. The point is Allies have to make a selective choice into commanders, wrong decision has high consequences compare to Axis.

Except if your forced to make Panthers as Ost you will have extremely low map presence due to the massive MP burn thanks to teching. You don't get more MP in 4's, meaning it's just as much a pain in the dick to do as in 2's.

If you pick non-viable Ost/OKW commanders, and are facing allied players who picked viable ones, you will lose if playing at equal skill levels.

LMG grens are good, and Pgrens are kinda eh but usable, but they are literally all Ostheer has unless you count the lol worthy Stormtroopers and Assault grens. Oustruppen are underused but take to much micro for most players.

And all of this Axis can do as well or do it better.

1. Smoke from mortar.
2. If your enemy is abusing pop cap you already have lost.
3. Wut
4. Stomped by KT/Tiger/Panther covered by Elephnat/Jadgtiger
5. Rep sation to repair friendly vehicles
6. Again, if you let enemy to abuse pop cap you already have lost.
7. Jadgpanzer can spot without losing mobility, periscops and amazing in teamgames ht searchlight which I would even call OP in 4v4.
8. And P47 are gone after first strafe due to Flat HT, also Panther can mark as well and JU strike is not worse than P47. Its even better.
9. Med truck, med bunkers.
10. CAS

And there are more Ostheer commanders for teamgames, like Joint Operation but you decided not to put it in.

You're also saying about IS2 and ISU yet you put commanders without them.

1. Soviets can do this, and the USF smoke launchers come in way faster allowing for more on the fly cover
2. Nope, Priests take up a lot of popcap, no reason to not decrew them. And if your enemy is popcap abusing it's probably because the game has gone on a long time. You are underestimating how quickly you can hit pop cap as USF
3. Dropping HMG's and AT guns with airborne is a great way to ensure a Soviet player who took a t1 start still has suppression and AT available to them
4. The fuel investment to make KT's/Tiger's/Panthers covered with JT's and Elefants would be almost triple the amount of the cost of the IS2's and Jacksons. Your never going to be able to get multiple KT's, or Jadgtigers, and both the Tiger and KT are easy to fight when using the IS2. The Jackson is your DPS/fist, the IS2 is the shield. Combine this with mark target.
5. Soviet one is in a shit doctrine, and the OKW repair truck repairs really slow, you should always have your idle tanks decrewed and the crews helping to repair
6. Not about pop cap abuse, it's about reducing the amount of micro you need to do.
7. The JPIV doesn't do 200 damage with a turret, and or have as good DPS as the SU-85 does. The point is team work.
8. JU-87 strike is in 1 viable Ost doctrine, but doesn't chase enemy tanks. The P-47's when shot down just turn into kamazie planes. Not to mention the fact the Flak HT normally isn't even alive at the P-47 stage of the game and it's rare for the schwer to shoot them down before they kill something because they chase tanks. Again, these are not things unique to Allies, but the mark target is a global ability you can put on anything, the Panther needs to go to a place and mark, and said mark doesn't give LOS or recon
9. Who cares? Oh deary me options available to both sides. And the medic truck can't heal an entire army with one click.
10. One Ost doctrine versus multiple soviet doctrines with call in's and almost every USF commander with recon and artillery call in's. lol

And there are more Ostheer commanders for teamgames, like Joint Operation but you decided not to put it in.

You're also saying about IS2 and ISU yet you put commanders without them.

Joint Op's is pointless because the Ost pak isn't as good as the OKW pak, and your not floating MP to make one. And the LefH is literal garbage. Why would you ever use this commander is beyond me.

And there are other good Soviet commanders without IS2 or ISU. The T34/85 commanders are amazing, Counterattack tactics is still very good, Terror Tactics is the perfect counter to all things OKW, and Shock Army is the same. Massed indirect fire and PPsH to ruin OKW blobs.

You and your arranged teams must get wrecked all the time to see pop cap abuse as much as you complain about it. In close games pop cap is rather hard to exceed seeing as both sides are loosing things

You and your arranged teams must get wrecked all the time to see pop cap abuse as much as you complain about it. In close games pop cap is rather hard to exceed seeing as both sides are loosing things

Why do you think Priests are the most problematic things as Iv highlighted before? Because they are a safe investment, you won't lose them and you don't have to pay the population cap for them.

Why do you think Priests are the most problematic things as Iv highlighted before? Because they are a safe investment, you won't lose them and you don't have to pay the population cap for them.

I've heard stuka strafe is hard.

I've heard stuka strafe is hard.

Yeah 1 Axis doctrine, that's countered by driving slightly to the left or right. Obviously makes being able to spam priests just fine.

another thread ruined

Yeah 1 Axis doctrine, that's countered by driving slightly to the left or right. Obviously makes being able to spam priests just fine.

In how many doctrines priest is again?
Where do you see any problem?

You do realize the doctrine is anti USF meta, right?

In how many doctrines priest is again?
Where do you see any problem?

You do realize the doctrine is anti USF meta, right?

Who cares? USF can be shut down without CAS, and infantry would still be a great commander if you couldn't decrew your priests.

It's a bloody howitzer, it doesn't need to jump out for emergency repairs. If it's getting hit it should die.

And lol if you seriously still go CAS to counter USF, 2 months ago called they want their meta back.