CAS needs adjusted

balanced in 1v1, "mostly balanced in 2v2" and horridly broken in anything above that.

Thing is, i recently tried the OKW AA, that thing got vet 3 by just standing around and immediately as the planes closed in it shoot down the P-47´s! If the allied AA´s would work the same, planes wouldnt be so Overpowered

You know that the USF M15 is even better at shooting planes down, right ?

There is so much lolz in this thread, Why are we discussing this doctrine AGAIN.
This is like the 4th time in the last month but lets break it down again...

- CAS consists of Fuel to muni, Recon, AT strafe, AI strafe, Stuka dive bomb.

- All the strikes are skillshots.

- The one using CAS will have not many tanks and in many cases no tanks.

- Ostheer is extremely vulnerable to things like kat trucks and ISU when using CAS.

- You don't counter it by shooting down the planes you counter it by dodging the skillshots.

- Demo's rape CAS blobs super hard. Most noobs don't spread there blob apart when using CAS.

- If Nerfed Luft supply and Ostruppen will take its place and both are just as effective.

- 2 to 3 mediums crushing can really ruin his day.

anti infantry strafe, if done right will AOE suppress surrounding units as far as 25m away. it's not a matter of blobbing or not.

Its dodge-able if you want to complain about the Stuka pin its the loitering one that can't miss.

dive bomb completely nullifies ml20 and b4. which is kinda lame.

Don't build ML-20 and B4 when you see him have a huge lmg/shreck blob too early. if you do its your own fault.

In 4v4 you get 2 going CAS and never lose.

While annoying CAS alone isn't going to win them the game When the IS2's and ISU's come rolling out they will have a very hard time stopping them without heavy armor. In 4's 2x CAS leaves you vulnerable in the sense that you don't have tank numbers.

With the B4 nerf I see no excuse for Stuka to hit base sectors.

If you got hit at your base sector with all your infantry there you got outplayed.
Its not different then shooting kats at base sector or priests.

What I actually find more annoying with this commander is the amount of tellers, lmg grens, riflenades, shrekgrens etc. it comes with. nearly infinite ammo suply makes Ostheer really really strong.

This is the strength of it right here, the planes are secondary. If CAS got nerfed Ostruppen doct can do it almost as well.

You know that the USF M15 is even better at shooting planes down, right ?

IT IS???!?!?! why are people complaining then...?

IT IS???!?!?! why are people complaining then...?

Because it's random whether is works or not ^^

Then try avoiding the crash...

The only problem with CAS is with very skinny maps, you cannot dodge anti tank strafe because the plane is there immediately and cannot dodge it even with AA

The only problem with CAS is with very skinny maps, you cannot dodge anti tank strafe because the plane is there immediately and cannot dodge it even with AA

This is it right here, Rails and metal is very bad for this. Same with Ettlebruck station. It's less of a problem in 4's because the maps are so large.

AA truck when set down is best AA I belive. Problem is, it's turing planes into kamikaze planes just after strafe wich makes them even more deadly. Strafe and then crash at your side.

It's fine when you have XXX muni Stuka 12 CP. It's horrible when you XX muni planes everywhere.

Thing is, i recently tried the OKW AA, that thing got vet 3 by just standing around and immediately as the planes closed in it shoot down the P-47´s! If the allied AA´s would work the same, planes wouldnt be so Overpowered

On a related note, the Soviet HT's AA upgrade is completely fucking useless at AA.

Ok, not literally. But it'll be shooting down planes on a blue moon.

What I have noticed and is very sick about this forum is that it is full of allies fanboys whose goal in life is to spend it all in this forum and complain, and cry about anything axis has and cry/beg relic to nerf it. even if it belongs to the UNQUESTIONABLY THE WEAKEST FACTION IN THE GAME (WEHRMACHT).
I would recommend you to learn to play instead of crying my friend!

lol

Im not saying OST are op, Im saying the doc needs adjusted and its hard to react/counter even if u are "skilled" at the game. Its hard to avoid and it can kill is-2's and isus in 1 strafe because they take so long to move give in the time to strike on the strafe.

CAS the doctrine for Ost is currently over preforming in large team games 3v3's and 4v4's.

???

You mean on those huge 3v3/4v4 maps? The single passes that come from a mile away and will miss every damn time unless you basically don't move your units for 10 seconds straight after you see the red smoke?

I might understand CAS being slightly(!) OP in 2v2 games where maps are usually much smaller and the planes come in faster, but certainly not in 3v3 or 4v4 games.

???

You mean on those huge 3v3/4v4 maps? The single passes that come from a mile away and will miss every damn time unless you basically don't move your units for 10 seconds straight after you see the red smoke?

I might understand CAS being slightly(!) OP in 2v2 games where maps are usually much smaller and the planes come in faster, but certainly not in 3v3 or 4v4 games.

You do realize you can choose which side of the map the plane comes from, right?

There is so much lolz in this thread, Why are we discussing this doctrine AGAIN.
This is like the 4th time in the last month but lets break it down again...

maybe because sane ppl and non pro axis circle jerkers are seeing the cheeseness of this commander in 2v2+?

- CAS consists of Fuel to muni, Recon, AT strafe, AI strafe, Stuka dive bomb.

- All the strikes are skillshots.

lol

- The one using CAS will have not many tanks and in many cases no tanks.

entirely ostheer player's fault. its his decision to transfer resources. its not like sov industry.

- Ostheer is extremely vulnerable to things like kat trucks and ISU when using CAS.

also when not using CAS

- You don't counter it by shooting down the planes you counter it by dodging the skillshots.

yep. AI strafe that you have 1 sec to dodge and AT strafe that you have 2-4 sec to dodge. such skillshot, click and click. much wow.

- Demo's rape CAS blobs super hard. Most noobs don't spread there blob apart when using CAS.

demo rape everything and if CAS user blobs and lose a lot to a demo? entirely his fault.

- If Nerfed Luft supply and Ostruppen will take its place and both are just as effective.

cool hypothesis, no basis.

- 2 to 3 mediums crushing can really ruin his day.

one p4 and pak or one panther then day not ruined. thank the gods.

Its dodge-able if you want to complain about the Stuka pin its the loitering one that can't miss.

'cept it is much bigger resource hog and having dedicated AA unit will make ostheer player lose 2/3 of the investment almost always.

Don't build ML-20 and B4 when you see him have a huge lmg/shreck blob too early. if you do its your own fault.

thx captain obvious for spelling it out and reading it to us. not the point but still appreciate every help i can get.

While annoying CAS alone isn't going to win them the game When the IS2's and ISU's come rolling out they will have a very hard time stopping them without heavy armor. In 4's 2x CAS leaves you vulnerable in the sense that you don't have tank numbers.

in 4s, axis lose, entirely their fault. no real discussion. commander pick for both axis factions are not as important as commander picks for allies. not even close.

If you got hit at your base sector with all your infantry there you got outplayed.
Its not different then shooting kats at base sector or priests.

not the same, but true

This is the strength of it right here, the planes are secondary. If CAS got nerfed Ostruppen doct can do it almost as well.

You do realize you can choose which side of the map the plane comes from, right?

Ever played Steppes for example? Does not matter where your plane comes from, because 80% of the time fighting is around middle fuel.

So basically you have to hope for engine crits on enemy tanks or that tanks occasionally move to map edges where you might hit them. Does not seem like an OP ability.

Ever played Steppes for example? Does not matter where your plane comes from, because 80% of the time fighting is around middle fuel.

So basically you have to hope for engine crits on enemy tanks or that tanks occasionally move to map edges where you might hit them. Does not seem like an OP ability.

Ok lets not act like there's no armor fights on the island, what about city 17? where all the fighting is on the edges?

ISU-152 ain't shit on Stalingrad, that doesn't mean it isn't OP on crossing in the woods.

Don't know why some are asking for a nerf of CAS at the moment. The patch hit a few days ago, and I barely see it being used.

Most axis players pick CAS to kill & deny the allies arty. Be it howitzers with the stuka bomb, or katyushas and priests with the anti-tank strafe.

Last patch, CAS was a mandatory pick for axis teams due to prevalence of counterattack commander. B4s were just wrecking OKW trucks, and unlike priests or katyushas a rogue PII or upgraded scoutcar will not reliably kill a B4 sitting in the base sector or very near to it.
Moreover, with the current nerf of the B4 (IMO it's so nerfed its out of the meta for good), a lot of people are going to move away from CAS and try some other commanders.

CAS is not the issue, you guys are approaching this the wrong way. Buffing the Soviets AA halftrack would help a lot, also remembering to preserve that USF halftrack and setting it up in AA mode will address most of your gripes.

Buff the counters, rather than nerfing the strafes.

also when not using CAS

If you loose your Kat/priest/ISU/IS2 due to CAS its your fault. Dodge it.

yep. AI strafe that you have 1 sec to dodge and AT strafe that you have 2-4 sec to dodge. such skillshot, click and click. much wow.

Dodge it. they both drop smoke and are only that fast when on the edges of the map. you can dodge .5 sec grenades but you can't dodge a 1.5-2s plane skillshot? That drops red smoke.
with your infantry yelling AIRSTRIKE as well.

demo rape everything and if CAS user blobs and lose a lot to a demo? entirely his fault.

Yep exactly why you should be using it a lot vs CAS players.

one p4 and pak or one panther then day not ruined. thank the gods.

If he has a panther you don't have to worry about the strikes as much as hes wasted a ton of fuel for that panther.

'cept it is much bigger resource hog and having dedicated AA unit will make ostheer player lose 2/3 of the investment almost always.

Soviet Quad sucks at shooting this thing down and it will get its first pass off and it won't miss.
The CAS one costs half but can miss. The loitering is secondary.

At the end of the day. Dodge it.
If you want to push for stronger Allied AA that's one thing (Something that i agree with)
But don't be all like "Oh its uncountable"

1. If you loose your Kat/priest/ISU/IS2 due to CAS its your fault. Dodge it.



2. Dodge it. they both drop smoke and are only that fast when on the edges of the map. you can dodge .5 sec grenades but you can't dodge a 1.5-2s plane skillshot? That drops red smoke.
with your infantry yelling AIRSTRIKE as well.



3. Yep exactly why you should be using it a lot vs CAS players.



4. If he has a panther you don't have to worry about the strikes as much as hes wasted a ton of fuel for that panther.


5. Allied Quad sucks at shooting this thing down and it will get its first pass off and it won't miss.
The CAS one costs half but can miss. The loitering is secondary.

6. At the end of the day. Dodge it.
If you want to push for stronger Allied AA that's one thing (Something that i agree with)
But don't be all like "Oh its uncountable"

1. ok. not my point. those units are always effective.

2. yep. dodging grenade and the much larger aoe airstrike is the same. and i do dodge most of the time. that is not my problem.

3. assuming all cas players are blobbing noobs?

4. good thing it is in team game where CAS is a problem.

5. thus i said "2/3"

6. can you quote me in this thread when i said CAS commander were uncounterable?

all the supposed counterplay you mentions is either

a. obvious suggestion that works in every game

b. assuming ostheer player is blobbing noob.

i dont think it is particularly OP. it is just very cheesy and not fun to play against/with.

...USF halftrack and setting it up in AA mode will address most of your gripes.
...

is this empirical? from my vast experience and many tests i have done, USF AAHT almost never shot the single pass before it dropped the payload. because unless called in specifically to take a long way, the plane will either shoot from outside of the map or as in enters the map. and only times USF AAHT was actually able to shoot down the planes before the payloads were finished was during tests, when i had world vision toggled on in Janne252's cheatmod. you actually need vision to take advantage of the AAHT's superior range.

CAS is fine IMO, for those complaining about it countering B4 or Howis, LeFH can be countered in the same way. That is ultimately the problem with static artillery, it is too easily countered. The doctrine is fine in 1v1 and little OP on 2v2, gets OP in 3v3 and 4v4, BUT so do most doctrines.