OH Sniper

So people think that a DIRECT hit of a Katyusha rocket should not kill a Sniper? Not even discussing realism now.

Maybe if a T4 late game dedicated indirect artillery unit opts to use its telegraphed, dodgeable barrage on a single infantry unit (designed around a risk / reward mechanic), and if said artillery happens to land a lucky rocket straight into said infantry unit out of its ridiculously large circle of effect, maybe, just maybe, it is not unfair to call BS on the video.

Out of curiosity, what do people think should happen if a Katyusha fires into a sniper, and the Ostheer player fails to react? If a direct hit cannot kill the sniper, with the scatter of individual rockets and the time between rocket clusters, this means you people actually think Katyushas should not be able to kill Ostheer snipers whatsoever unless the player is a brainless, microless noob and sticks around for the full barrage?

Do people really think that Kats should be that harmless? That a 360MP unit should survive indirect arty simply because it's expensive?

Risk and reward, people. If a Kat can't kill the Ostheer sniper even with the help of RNG gods, then where is the risk, precisely?

This game is based on RNG here and there so why shouldnt that count ?

Because RNG needs to go, It takes alot of micro and time to get the sniper to vet 3 and generally he still reaches that level 15-20 min into the game with perfect micro and assuming he was one of your first purchases (which should never be), he shouldn't get killed by a random rocket or mortar/AT gun that randomly fired and managed to fully hit him.

Sometimes i really think i am talking to a wall.
Just because you reached vet 3 should it make invincable ?
It also takes micro for other units and then well placed demo kills your vet 3 whatever.
If your sniper reaches vet 3 then it should have around 50+ kills that means it has several times paid itself off.
Random rocket like kats ? costs a lot and often does not pay itself off.You rely on luck in that case.
Mortars ? They have to scout to actually attack a target which means if you dont stand still and get back in cover there shouldnt be any problem of a direct hit.

So people think that a DIRECT hit of a Katyusha rocket should not kill a Sniper? Not even discussing realism now.

Maybe if a T4 late game dedicated indirect artillery unit opts to use its telegraphed, dodgeable barrage on a single infantry unit (designed around a risk / reward mechanic), and if said artillery happens to land a lucky rocket straight into said infantry unit out of its ridiculously large circle of effect, maybe, just maybe, it is not unfair to call BS on the video.

Out of curiosity, what do people think should happen if a Katyusha fires into a sniper, and the Ostheer player fails to react? If a direct hit cannot kill the sniper, with the scatter of individual rockets and the time between rocket clusters, this means you people actually think Katyushas should not be able to kill Ostheer snipers whatsoever unless the player is a brainless, microless noob and sticks around for the full barrage?

Do people really think that Kats should be that harmless? That a 360MP unit should survive indirect arty simply because it's expensive?

Risk and reward, people. If a Kat can't kill the Ostheer sniper even with the help of RNG gods, then where is the risk, precisely?

What do you want? The change was not implemented so that specifically Katyusha doesn't kill the Sniper, but many other things as well. This is just a side effect. Nerfing the Sniper so that the Katyusha can oneshot the Sniper will mean that other things will do the same again as well.

The Katyusha will still kill the Sniper just fine if two rockets hit, which is not unrealistic.

And where have you been all the time when Soviet Snipers were much more survivable than the German Sniper? When they had even a Sprint ability allowing them to get out of all kinds sticky situations? There were no lectures about "risk and reward" for all these years, but now after a few hours the Soviets rally because they get a look into the mirror. Even now the Soviet Sniper is still similarly survivable as the German Sniper, except that a direct hit from a Katyusha would kill the Sniper, however with a good chance that the second squad model still gets away...

Maybe if a T4 late game dedicated indirect artillery unit opts to use its telegraphed, dodgeable barrage on a single infantry unit (designed around a risk / reward mechanic), and if said artillery happens to land a lucky rocket straight into said infantry unit out of its ridiculously large circle of effect, maybe, just maybe, it is not unfair to call BS on the video.

Kat still can kill full-health sniper using precise barrage.

Because RNG needs to go,

By that logic, accuracy / target size calculations should be removed, as well as penetration / armour mechanics, altogether? Scatter should be removed from mortars and arty? How the hell will you model a WW2 game without these?

It takes alot of micro and time to get the sniper to vet 3 and generally he still reaches that level 15-20 min into the game with perfect micro and assuming he was one of your first purchases (which should never be), he shouldn't get killed by a random rocket or mortar/AT gun that randomly fired and managed to fully hit him.

If it is "perfect" micro, then how did a Katyusha rocket manage to hit him?

You are supposed to babysit your sniper. If you wanted a squad that is resilient to RNG, you should have bought a squad that doesn't have cloak and instakill crits.

And where have you been all the time when Soviet Snipers were much more survivable than the German Sniper? When they had even a Sprint ability allowing them to get out of all kinds sticky situations? .

Here are just several of my posts where I savagely attack the Soviet Snipers, there are many more if you look for it:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/23339/title/post/210136
http://www.coh2.org/topic/23339/title/post/210060
http://www.coh2.org/topic/29809/title/post/273502

Some of my own quotes:

"Soviet snipers are the epitome of bad game design."

"they break everything that is supposed to be the defining characteristic of the unit, and replace it with a completely incongruous set of superpowers. These snipers can sprint away from infantry, cloak, turn around on a dime and shoot running, advancing infantry in the face with 100% efficiency, then continue sprinting away."

And? Now what?

Here are just several of my posts where I savagely attack the Soviet Snipers, there are many more if you look for it:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/23339/title/post/210136
http://www.coh2.org/topic/23339/title/post/210060
http://www.coh2.org/topic/29809/title/post/273502

Some of my own quotes:

"Soviet snipers are the epitome of bad game design."

"they break everything that is supposed to be the defining characteristic of the unit, and replace it with a completely incongruous set of superpowers. These snipers can sprint away from infantry, cloak, turn around on a dime and shoot running, advancing infantry in the face with 100% efficiency, then continue sprinting away."

And? Now what?

Fine then, I wasn't aware of that. Then at least your argumentation makes sense. So you are in favour of nerfing both the German and the Soviet sniper?

gokkel, perhaps you should reread patch notes a few more times.
Sov sniper WAS nerfed, twice this patch.
Removal of sprint and moving the flare to vet1.
Sprint was the biggest offender in its survivability since sniper wars were never intended to exist in coh2.

Yes Sprint was nerfed, but if you nerf the German Sniper back to its old value then the Soviet Sniper will STILL be more survivable even without Sprint.

Who the fuck talks about old value of ost sniper?
We're talking about TWO HP POINTS.
Are you so blinded by bias that you don't even see what people are writing in the thread?

Yes Sprint was nerfed, but if you nerf the German Sniper back to its old value then the Soviet Sniper will STILL be more survivable even without Sprint.

That's where the superior German camouflage comes in. Besides, the old value was too low, the new one is too high. A simple middle-ground solution would work wonders.

With the USF and their 4-5 man squads, and the OKW squads of 4-6, the German snipers higher rate of fire already makes it better in killing than the Soviet sniper (it used to be even when all squads were 4 vs 6). Does it really need to also have better cloak, better survivability and a better vet ability than the soviet sniper team?

Fine then, I wasn't aware of that. Then at least your argumentation makes sense. So you are in favour of nerfing both the German and the Soviet sniper?

Thank you for that, I will try to be similarly fair to your arguments in the future.

Yeah I pretty much hate the way snipers are implemented in CoH2 (better than CoH1, but still). Do you think I like it when my 360MP investment goes down the drain due to a lucky RNG roll the second I look away? I curse RNG as much as the next guy and realize that a fragile unit dying to a lucky RNG roll is frustrating.

While Soviet snipers were more survivable, I was pretty much against them and I abhorred Sov cheese. God knows Ostheer sniper needed a buff but if it is too survivable it is a good way to inflict one-way manpower bleed on an opponent.

By that logic, accuracy / target size calculations should be removed, as well as penetration / armour mechanics, altogether? Scatter should be removed from mortars and arty? How the hell will you model a WW2 game without these?

You are disillusioned if you think that the current penetration system is any kind of realistic, it's only frustrating actually, if you want a good pen/armor system play Man of war, where the engagments happen at simulated Kms of distance, here, at the distances we're playing a sherman would easily penetrate a tiger from the front.

And then you have tanks missing other tanks not when they are straight infront of them but when the barrel is INSIDE the other tank.

So please, cut the bullshit and let's actually make this game enjoyanble rather than a retarded RNG-fest that can appear "realistic" only to a twisted mind.

In DoW2 tanks and arty worked well and was neither RNG based nor frustating, a predator wouldn't randomly 1 shot a squad or miss it 5 times in a row, but it would do a constant dps.

If it is "perfect" micro, then how did a Katyusha rocket manage to hit him?

You are supposed to babysit your sniper. If you wanted a squad that is resilient to RNG, you should have bought a squad that doesn't have cloak and instakill crits.

Because the kat at low range is unvoidable and at long range the spread of missile it's so big and it fires so many of them that it's impossible to predict the impact zone.

Thank you for that, I will try to be similarly fair to your arguments in the future.

Yeah I pretty much hate the way snipers are implemented in CoH2 (better than CoH1, but still). Do you think I like it when my 360MP investment goes down the drain due to a lucky RNG roll the second I look away? I curse RNG as much as the next guy and realize that a fragile unit dying to a lucky RNG roll is frustrating.

While Soviet snipers were more survivable, I was pretty much against them and I abhorred Sov cheese. God knows Ostheer sniper needed a buff but if it is too survivable it is a good way to inflict one-way manpower bleed on an opponent.

I think this would be much less of a problem if T1 was more accessible after you started with T2 for Soviets and if T2 was available right away OR soon after T1 for the Scout Car for Ostheer. I'm sure you know where I am going with that, but let's just say that M3 Scout Car and 221 are the intended counters to Snipers and they work pretty well, with their flaw being that they are either not in the tier you went for or arriving too late to stop the MP bleed.

Funnily enough in CoH1, Sniper duels were a thing but motorcycle and the jeep brought a balance to that arrangement.

Another main issue is that scout cars only work partially due to presence of fausts.
I see the biggest problem of OH sniper against usf.They hardly have counter for it no mortar,no long range units.

Who the fuck talks about old value of ost sniper?
We're talking about TWO HP POINTS.
Are you so blinded by bias that you don't even see what people are writing in the thread?

We already had that discussion. Why do you think Relic chose 82 and not 80? Because a lot of things will kill 80 HP soldiers, including some really RNG things, but 82 HP will let them survive some of those, so those 2 points make a huge difference (which is why you want to take away the two points). Putting it to the old value or putting it to 80 HP makes little difference in that sense.

The Soviet Sniper will be still be more survivable than a 80 HP German Sniper would be even without Sprint. Against small arms (80 vs 2x48), against AT guns, mortars, in Sniper duels etc. because where the Soviet Sniper will usually lose only one guy the German one will lose the whole squad. How will you justfiy this disparity then if you put the German Sniper to 80 HP? Now it seems more fair, because while the German Sniper is still more vulnerable to some things, it is not (unrealistically, but still) in other situations.

And please Katitof, stop accusing other people of bias all the time. I see you post in nearly every thread in this forum, but I virtually never see you take a position that is contrary to Soviets or in favour of Axis. I have no problem to admit to everyone here that I much prefer playing Axis factions, and while I am maybe a bit more passionate about topics involving Axis, you can still find posts of me that are not always the same onesided way.

We already had that discussion. Why do you think Relic chose 82 and not 80?

For the same reason they have used 480hp for jackson at the beginning when teller was still doing 500 dmg.
For the same reason G43s on march deployment patch last year obliterated everything at all ranges.
For the same reason KT had 425 armor and best USF AT had 160pen against it.
For the same reason suppression fire of RETs could suppress effortlessly multiple squads and after nerf it could be renamed "please delete this squad now".
For the same reason we had obers before the patch.
For the same reason we had 4 G43 JLI squads with better DPS then fallshirms.
For the same reason that made Stuka Close Air Support loiter a plane of doom which murders everything while it was meant to be AT strafe, when IL-2 loitering strafe was battered with nerf after nerf for exactly the same reason.

Because they have some really clueless people working on balance who aren't smart enough to foresee most basic implications of their changes which leads to utter bullshit changes like we have with pretty much every single balance patch.

Because they have some really clueless people working on balance who aren't smart enough to foresee most basic implications of their changes which leads to utter bullshit changes like we have with pretty much every single balance patch.

I don't even dare to imagine how this game would look if balanced by you. The only players that would still play it - > you and your fanclub aka Allied 100% Axis 0% LOL.

For the same reason they have used 480hp for jackson at the beginning when teller was still doing 500 dmg.
For the same reason G43s on march deployment patch last year obliterated everything at all ranges.
For the same reason KT had 425 armor and best USF AT had 160pen against it.
For the same reason suppression fire of RETs could suppress effortlessly multiple squads and after nerf it could be renamed "please delete this squad now".
For the same reason we had obers before the patch.
For the same reason we had 4 G43 JLI squads with better DPS then fallshirms.

Because they have some really clueless people working on balance who aren't smart enough to foresee most basic implications of their changes which leads to utter bullshit changes like we have with pretty much every single balance patch.

In fairness, I think Relic may have relied upon ther Testers from the community, bcs there was no Balance designer for a while.

Also, please post a little less vigorously? Thanks