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Real Talk: Panther

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24 Mar 2015, 20:32 PM
#101
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Yeah, its called Jackson.


Good thing the Jackson is a Tank Destroyer, not a Tank Hunter.

JPZIV is a bit different, although it has good armor (230 meaning around 70% penetration at max range) and it also has a small target size, so if the shot hits, it most probably will penetrate


The issue with the JPIV is that is ha extremely poor acceleration and turning, along with no gun traverse means getting it to a place and getting it to actually hit tanks is somewhat of a challenge.
24 Mar 2015, 20:34 PM
#102
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



Good thing the Jackson is a Tank Destroyer, not a Tank Hunter.



The issue with the JPIV is that is ha extremely poor acceleration and turning, along with no gun traverse means getting it to a place and getting it to actually hit tanks is somewhat of a challenge.






that goes without saying yes the Jackson is a Tank Destroyer and the Panther is a tank so there is and should be a disparity on that.
24 Mar 2015, 20:41 PM
#103
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1







that goes without saying yes the Jackson is a Tank Destroyer and the Panther is a tank so there is and should be a disparity on that.


The Panther is made to hunt and slug it out with tanks 1 on 1, the Jackson is meant to support your other tanks and infantry.

Panther's roll =/= Jacksons roll.
24 Mar 2015, 21:13 PM
#104
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

Panthers frontal armor is too damn thick. Bouncing off 50% of shots.
Why shouldn´t it? Historically its frontal armor was almost impervious.

It needs the frontal armor. If it goes back to the stage it was pre-patch, nobody is going to build it again. Smart Panther usage should be rewarded. And currently it is like this. No need to change it.

German players who keep their Panther at range, facing the frontal armor to the enemy should win.
24 Mar 2015, 21:20 PM
#105
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



The Panther is made to hunt and slug it out with tanks 1 on 1, the Jackson is meant to support your other tanks and infantry.

Panther's roll =/= Jacksons roll.


Thats.......exactly what I said.......... both hunt tanks the manner at which they do it is different but they both hunt tanks :S
24 Mar 2015, 21:21 PM
#106
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2015, 18:57 PMPorygon
Panther have a very shitty DPS , and someone here tell me it is Ober of panzer, what would you expect and what I would expect instead of claiming this thread as bullshit and watch the show?

24 Mar 2015, 21:22 PM
#107
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



If a tank hunter couldn't bounce the shots of enemy tanks it would be a rather shit tank hunter don't yah think?

Except tank destroyers aren't exactly destroying it at all as well.
I suppose we should buff SU-85 and jackson penetration so they have over 50% of penetrating front armor of stock tank?
24 Mar 2015, 21:29 PM
#108
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2015, 21:22 PMKatitof

Except tank destroyers aren't exactly destroying it at all as well.
I suppose we should buff SU-85 and jackson penetration so they have over 50% of penetrating front armor of stock tank?


The SU-85 and Jackson already have more than a 50% chance to pen the frontal armor of a Panther.

I showed you the SU-85 earlier, here's the Jackson:

200.0/180.0/160.0 = 62.5% chance/56.2% chance/50% chance
24 Mar 2015, 21:34 PM
#109
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Thats.......exactly what I said.......... both hunt tanks the manner at which they do it is different but they both hunt tanks :S


A Tank Hunter is normally well armored and has a gun with a fair amount of penetration on it, but not as much as a TD thanks to the turret. The only real Tank Hunter in roll in the game is the Panther; it's meant to fight tanks in a grinding battle and win thanks to superior armor and the main gun, but it preforms very poorly versus things that aren't tanks.

Tank Destroyers are tanks dedicated to supporting MBT's in pushes against enemy armor, and supporting infantry. A Tank Hunter operates more independently than a Tank Destroyer.
24 Mar 2015, 21:35 PM
#110
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



The SU-85 and Jackson already have more than a 50% chance to pen the frontal armor of a Panther.

I showed you the SU-85 earlier, here's the Jackson:

200.0/180.0/160.0 = 62.5% chance/56.2% chance/50% chance


Why are you saying the ranges below 60?
If they get within 50 range of the panther they are scrap metal.
So few words, so much bullshit, you always deliver, got to admit you that.
24 Mar 2015, 21:38 PM
#111
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2015, 21:35 PMKatitof


Why are you saying the ranges below 60?
If they get within 50 range of the panther they are scrap metal.
So few words, so much bullshit, you always deliver, got to admit you that.


Uhhh If you are charging your TD's into enemy positions when they have AT the problem is with you, not the tank destroyers.

Even at MAX range they still have 50% or above to penetrate, I proved you wrong. And it still takes the Panther 3 shots to kill a Jackson, 3 shots that won't come very fast from the Panthers main gun.

24 Mar 2015, 21:45 PM
#112
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Uhhh If you are charging your TD's into enemy positions when they have AT the problem is with you, not the tank destroyers.



You for real?


Even at MAX range they still have 50% or above to penetrate, I proved you wrong. And it still takes the Panther 3 shots to kill a Jackson, 3 shots that won't come very fast from the Panthers main gun.


I've said TDs have 50% chance to pen at max range.
You've said TDs have 50% chance to pen at max range.
You proved me wrong how exactly?

If anything, you reinforced my argument of TDs being ineffective.
And that 3 shots will take approx 12 seconds*




*inb4 stupid argument-panther doesn't reload when it sees the target, it shoots, then reloads next round.
24 Mar 2015, 21:55 PM
#113
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2015, 21:45 PMKatitof



You for real?



I've said TDs have 50% chance to pen at max range.
You've said TDs have 50% chance to pen at max range.
You proved me wrong how exactly?

If anything, you reinforced my argument of TDs being ineffective.
And that 3 shots will take approx 12 seconds*




*inb4 stupid argument-panther doesn't reload when it sees the target, it shoots, then reloads next round.


TD's are not ineffective, at all. 50% chance to pen against the most armored Axis turreted tank in the game except the KT is fairly good for non-doc TD's. Not to mention the fact that You will have 8% better pen against the Tiger than the Panther, and the Tiger is not nearly as fast nor does it have as much range.

The Panther takes a minimum of 11.6 seconds and your assuming of course like you said you weren't shoot at anything else beforehand.

3 shots it's 17.4 seconds minimum. Of course if you average it out it will actually take 18.75 seconds to make 3 shots if you reloaded for your first one.

Regardless, The only issue the Jackson has is that Panthers and Tigers can escape to easily using Blitz and every agrees Blitz shouldn't be in the game in it's current form.
24 Mar 2015, 21:55 PM
#114
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

I'd say to just to stick with removing Blitzkrieg from it first. Probably 99% of any problems with it lie there, because it NASCARing into your lines' vulnerable areas (or just reversing out) is eminently ridiculous. The rest of it might not be so intolerable without that.
Why shouldn´t it? Historically its frontal armor was almost impervious.

It needs the frontal armor. If it goes back to the stage it was pre-patch, nobody is going to build it again. Smart Panther usage should be rewarded. And currently it is like this. No need to change it.

German players who keep their Panther at range, facing the frontal armor to the enemy should win.

I'd imagine anyone who wants that is figuring that for the same reasons the Panther in-game allohistorically has no side armour and has six more gears in reverse.
24 Mar 2015, 21:58 PM
#115
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2015, 21:55 PMVuther
I'd say to just to stick with removing Blitzkrieg from it first. Probably 99% of any problems with it lie there, because it NASCARing into your lines' vulnerable areas (or just reversing out) is eminently ridiculous. The rest of it might not be so intolerable without that.

I'd imagine anyone who wants that is figuring that for the same reasons the Panther in-game allohistorically has no side armour and has six more gears in reverse.


Relic has stated Side Armor and Different reverse accelerations are not actually possible.
24 Mar 2015, 21:59 PM
#116
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



Relic has stated Side Armor and Different reverse accelerations are not actually possible.

And changing frontal armour, if necessary, is. Etc, etc.
24 Mar 2015, 22:03 PM
#117
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2015, 21:59 PMVuther

And changing frontal armour, if necessary, is. Etc, etc.


If you nerfed the frontal armor of the Panther then you would have to nerf the frontal armor of the Tiger.

See how these issues start to compound? The Panther just needs to not have warp speed thanks to blitz, that's all.
24 Mar 2015, 22:11 PM
#118
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

Panther is fine for it's role, just the "Blitz" ability needs to be tweaked.
24 Mar 2015, 22:12 PM
#119
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1



If you nerfed the frontal armor of the Panther then you would have to nerf the frontal armor of the Tiger.

See how these issues start to compound? The Panther just needs to not have warp speed thanks to blitz, that's all.

No you don't, the Panther's the Panther, the Tiger's the Tiger, history is history, Company of Heroes 2 is Company of Heroes 2.

I'm not saying to nerf the 400 health Luchs because the 320 health Stuart had 36mm more frontal armour, am I?

I myself would greatly prefer history guide the balance changes, but if it is necessary, it is necessary. But yes, to repeat myself, just stick removing Blitzkrieg for now. I doubt the issue will be as egregious after that.
24 Mar 2015, 22:23 PM
#120
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637



Relic has stated Side Armor and Different reverse accelerations are not actually possible.


LOL OMG! No Relic did not say that. Quinn Duffy said it is possible but probably wouldnt help anything. Nowhere did he ever say that Side armor was not possible.

You misquote ALOT of things.

And still waiting on why buffing DPS and taking away God Armor is a bad idea. Still waiting...
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