Proposal - Slowing down the heavies.

The Problem - The meta today currently rewards going for either heavy or superheavy callins, in particular the Soviets but this is apparent across all the factions (apart from the US). This results in a race for the heavies and a predictable outcome to the game. What's more these heavy tanks simply out perform medium tanks in everyway. Whilst this is reasonably justified by their price, it doesn't make for interesting gameplay. This needs to change.

The Proposed Solution -
The Solution I advocate is for heavy tanks and heavy tank destroyers to have their speed drastically nerfed and abilities like blitzkrieg removed. For example, I would recommend having say the IS-2's speed of 5.0 reduced to perhaps 3.5 or even 3. For units such as the KT and Elefant however who are already very slow, the changes would be minimal perhaps only a drop of .2 or .3

The Effects -
The most obvious result would be that Heavy tanks now couldn't as effectively fight a war of manouevre against an enemy using medium tanks as effectively as they can now. The current differences in speed between medium tanks and heavies simply isn't large enough to give mediums an edge. (besides German mediums having blitzkrieg) Currently a heavy, once flanked, can simply reverse, making it difficult for the mediums to continue effectively flanking it and just shoot its away out of trouble. This shouldn't happen. The proposed changes mean that heavies that are out of position or have been effectively flanked will now really suffer the consequences of such a mistake.
As well as this, the strategic mobility of these units (game wise) will be hurt as well, as no longer will it be possible to police VPs with a heavy or multiple heavies who will be able to reach a VP under attack relatively quickly. Such a change instead will allow mediums to use their mobility to out manouevre poorly.

The results
Medium tanks have a role into the lategame, rather than simply being a stepping stone to a heavy or free veterancy for one. Their comparative speed will give them a significant advantage over heavy tanks in one particular area.
Heavy tanks can remain powerful, but will fall to skilled play and will have a clearer role which will have its own pros and cons, as opposed to what it is now where they are just pros with no real disadvantages.
Diminishing of the call in meta, as players realise medium tanks now have a particular role to play which no other unit can do, since heavy tanks are now slowed, hopefully we shall see more diverse builds.
Skilled play encouraged more, with heavy tanks now not the one way to victory and mediums given a niche, hopefully we shall see mediums used with greater skill and effectiveness in certain situations, rather than just calling a heavy tank and it being a repeat of the Villers-Bocage Tiger Ace missions in vCoH.


Interested to see what else you chaps can come up with, it mightn't be a particularly elegant solution, but I'd like to think it would do something at least.

Edit: Herpaderp, managed to put this into bugs instead of balance, mods could you move this thread please?

This is already reflected in game, heavies have slightly lower MAX speeds, but they all have extremely shit acceleration. For instance, the KV1 has the same speed as the T34, but it has far less acceleration so you will only rarely see it at that speed.

The reason Blitzkrieg and Overclock are so powerful is they let you reach your max speed quickly, as opposed to waiting for acceleration.

interesting and i think it could lead to what you have predicted. worth a try at least.

The only time you will normally see a Heavy hit it's max speed is on a road, but roads typically aren't what you use for flanking.

I doubt relic would do it but I wouldn't mind a 10-20% decrease in speed for heavy tanks so that medium tanks can have a bigger role also yes I agree blitzkrieg is abit stupid for heavy tanks but I doubt relic will remove them for heavy tanks either and if they do they will have to be replaced by another ability

Something definitely needs to happen to heavies. They really just don't have any real downfalls. Either counters need to be more effective against them or they need to lose something so they aren't as effective/resistant in every circumstance. Reducing their mobility is definitely one way to go about it.

This is already in game, reducing top speed but keeping acceleration the same would literally not make a difference at all.

Personally, I want to see their rotation and rear armour toned down. Currently, a KT can rotate fast enough to keep its turret locked on a tank that attempting to circle strafe and IS-2 and KTs have ridiculous amounts of rear armour that making flanking with mediums not very rewarding.

Also, you could make them decelerate a lot slower, so they wouldn't be able to perform rapid movements from one place to the next.

I would like to see map design changed. Allow you to actually utilize one of the core constructs of the game... cut-offs and resource acquisition, make the heavies harder to field in team games.

The solution here is buff mediums, not to nerf heavies. Just give mediums some more health in order to tank a few shots (pun intended).

The solution here is buff mediums, not to nerf heavies. Just give mediums some more health in order to tank a few shots (pun intended).

not really. mediums are fine. its heavies and super heavies who's efficiency and cost effectiveness are broken imo.

not really. mediums are fine. its heavies and super heavies who's efficiency and cost effectiveness are broken imo.

If heavies and super heavies are to cost effective because they own medium tanks, who not make medium tanks harder to own? Not to mention tanks not dying to a passing breeze would help lengthen games a bit.

If heavies and super heavies are to cost effective because they own medium tanks, who not make medium tanks harder to own? Not to mention tanks not dying to a passing breeze would help lengthen games a bit.

Because heavy tanks require zero micro and then everything that meets medium tanks would need to be changed when heavy tanks are the sole problem. No need to overcomplicate things.

Its also beyond the relationship between medium tanks and heavy tanks, so then everything with AT potential would need to be adjusted and that would be very unnecessary...

If heavies and super heavies are to cost effective because they own medium tanks, who not make medium tanks harder to own? Not to mention tanks not dying to a passing breeze would help lengthen games a bit.

I have to agree with pig here. Mediums are great as they currently are vs. each other and in large enough numbers vs. heavies. Mediums have the right balance of HP right now (besides the /85 and e8, but they are heavy-mediums). The problem is that heavies can quickly make their way from one side of the battlefield in order to cut off any attempt at harassment where they aren't. In this way, the panther would become a much more interesting unit as it would be able to guard against fast moving mediums, making ostheer t4 more viable effectiveness-wise vs. heavies as they should be.

If heavies and super heavies are to cost effective because they own medium tanks, who not make medium tanks harder to own? Not to mention tanks not dying to a passing breeze would help lengthen games a bit.

i think i am correct in assuming that before WFA, most people appreciated early game flow and mid game flow where medium tanks has to find holes and have to play little dances against enemy medium armours and other things.

then late game comes with these heavy armours that have guns that shoots nuclear bombs and armour values that warps gravity.

Because heavy tanks require zero micro and then everything that meets medium tanks would need to be changed when heavy tanks are the sole problem. No need to overcomplicate things.

Its also beyond the relationship between medium tanks and heavy tanks, so then everything with AT potential would need to be adjusted and that would be very unnecessary...

But heavies are already less maneuverable than mediums, so it doesn't make a terrible amount of sense to lower the max speed when they only rarely hit it.

One needs to look at why they require so little micro; which has to do with way fuel income works and how replaceable they are. And to keep a heavy tank being effective when there is a large amount of AT on the field you need to be pretty quick on the reaction due to the slow acceleration.

I have to agree with pig here. Mediums are great as they currently are vs. each other and in large enough numbers vs. heavies. Mediums have the right balance of HP right now (besides the /85 and e8, but they are heavy-mediums). The problem is that heavies can quickly make their way from one side of the battlefield in order to cut off any attempt at harassment where they aren't. In this way, the panther would become a much more interesting unit as it would be able to guard against fast moving mediums, making ostheer t4 more viable effectiveness-wise vs. heavies as they should be.

The problem here is that heavies can move a fair distance once they can hit their max speed, but this doesn't change how much micro they need or how hard it is to kill them. If you want to take blitz off the KT and Tiger that's fine, but their slow acceleration makes it hard for them to quickly escape a sticky situation.

If you want to make players play more conservatively with heavies then reduce the players ability to replace them. A player who has no way to replace a tank will be very stingy and careful with that one tank.

then late game comes with these heavy armours that have guns that shoots nuclear bombs

The only heavy MBT that does more than 160 damage in the KT.

The reason Blitzkrieg and Overclock are so powerful is they let you reach your max speed quickly, as opposed to waiting for acceleration.

Not since one of the more recent patches ago, Blitzkrieg was nerfed to only effect acceleration, making it useless but in line with everything else, but that change was unaccountably reverted and now blitz increases speed as well.

The only heavy MBT that does more than 160 damage in the KT.

talking about infantry wipage that many heavy tanks are capable of every shot.

Not since one of the more recent patches ago, Blitzkrieg was nerfed to only effect acceleration, making it useless but in line with everything else, but that change was unaccountably reverted and now blitz increases speed as well.

The acceleration it gives is much better than the speed (although it giving extra speed is great), because it lets you reach your max quickly so when it wears off your still costing at your top KpH. Still, said abilities shouldn't be on the KT and Tiger, both should have an ability that increases their ROF (or range maybe?) at the cost of a heavy amount of muni

talking about infantry wipage that many heavy tanks are capable of every shot.

It's ultimately all RNG, killing infantry isn't the issue with the heavy tanks, it's the ability to replace said heavies because they are call in units which make them cheaper then teching.

Ironically the most balanced heavy in the game is the KT, because it's gated behind teching like all heavy tanks should be.