Let's Make USA Easier to Play Late Game

Having gone back a bit to my most hated faction, I still don't like them much.

Let's talk about late-game micro, not the penetration and armor values.

What is it that makes US such a pain to play? Extra micro no other faction has to do. Not only are you managing a crap ton of squads, which you need to spread out (unless you're a pro-blobber) and micro, but your tanks are paper-mache dolls that can pack a punch but need more micro than Axis tanks. Axis players reverse out of trouble, call up a pio to repair. Generally Ostheer and particularly OKW have less armor to manage but US needs at least 3 tanks on the field to be effective and counter everything coming (in an even game). You have to quickly reverse ALL your tanks (if something you can't handle is running up, like a shrek blob) then additionally, instead of just starting repairs one by one, pop out of each tank individually, then do more clicking to get back in them. At least Relic threw us a bone by having repairs auto-start, and this was obviously in deference to some playtesting that revealed US had too much clicking to do vs the other factions. But this whole process still takes valuable seconds that stops you from microing your infantry, and those seconds are multiplied by the number of tanks you have. Whereas an Axis player is either backing up to his repair truck or tasking a few pios to repair tanks one by one (given that this is the most efficient way to get armor back in action faster).

So basically a US player is always on the backfoot late game microwise. And given the fragility of US infantry and armor, this means late game action is always much more difficult.

Relic obviously thought the ability to recrew tanks with veteran units (to get your Jackson up to vet 2 by exchanging crews with a Sherman or Scott to deal with a Tiger) was the asymmetric balance mechanism. But I don't think anyone could argue that this is really doing all that much for US players.

So, Relic, let's just get rid of separate crews. Give rear echelons stronger repairs and drop the whole crew system for medium tanks (we can keep it for the lights, it's cool and popping out of an M3 to counter a Puma is neato and rewarding). I think this alone, rather than screwing around with the units, or giving US a Pershing, would make the US substantially easier to play late game and have a better chance of winning.

Completly agree with you! Except for the pershing part: I'm not asking for a heavy tank, but more something like a Panther, that can take hit and packing a serious punch.

Completly agree with you! Except for the pershing part: I'm not asking for a heavy tank, but more something like a Panther, that can take hit and packing a serious punch.

Barring making up a unit USF has no equivalent to the Panther other than the Pershing.

The Pershing would make USF late game a little better, but it would get reamed by Axis AT late game barring nerfing the Pak43/Elefant/Jadgtiger into the ground.

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So, Relic, let's just get rid of separate crews. Give rear echelons stronger repairs and drop the whole crew system for medium tanks (we can keep it for the lights, it's cool and popping out of an M3 to counter a Puma is neato and rewarding). I think this alone, rather than screwing around with the units, or giving US a Pershing, would make the US substantially easier to play late game and have a better chance of winning.

wait. this is your conclusion? i think this ability is a huge advantage USF has over the others.

So, Relic, let's just get rid of separate crews. Give rear echelons stronger repairs and drop the whole crew system for medium tanks (we can keep it for the lights, it's cool and popping out of an M3 to counter a Puma is neato and rewarding). I think this alone, rather than screwing around with the units, or giving US a Pershing, would make the US substantially easier to play late game and have a better chance of winning.

Aside from Pershing, how does this even change anything? USF vehicles aren't getting penalized for having vehicle crews. The vehicle crews are an addition to what you get and the fact if you can get your vehicle out alive, you can get them back into action before anyone else can aside from maybe OKW if there Sturms are right beside the tank.

That's what I'm getting from this post.

I'd rather not have to use RE's for repairing. They'd probably become some what more expensive and its manpower the usf doesnt have. I just dont like the idea of it.

The crew system is awesome and one of the best things about USF,one of the best things about Coh2 period imo.

Getting rid of crews would make it harder late game,if anything,and the pershing is just too much and not even part of the theme of the faction,and wouldnt and shouldnt be that much more durable.

Give the jackson WAYY more pen and normal damage,and allow it to get even MORE pen and damage when using APCR rounds,move the APCR to vet 2,give both shermans 800 hp,and make the AP rounds on sherman consistent against rear armor of heavies,and USF is set.

Jackson needs to be reworked to be a counter to heavy armour instead of medium armor (which it is most effective at currently). Increase pen, decrease damage, increase ROF slightly, increase fuel cost. It should be a bit more expensive (but not much), have better perf vs heavies, worse perf vs mediums (compared to right now).

Pershing doctrine would help them be more viable in team-games compared to now, while minimally impacting balance in solo games.

If I was in charge of the factions, the USF would have 3" AT guns out of captain's tier, with the 57mm reserved for Airborne doctrine. It would be more comparable to a Pak, maybe slightly worse but within that range of performance. Vet 1 ability would be the AP shells as with 57, giving the USF a good way to pen heavies.

I would make the M10 wolverine longer ranged, as a sniper tank, maybe a bit of a buff to make it more useful (and slightly more expensive) then swap it with the M36 Jackson. Jackson would be a more expensive doctrinal Tank Destroyer in Armored Company (140-145 fuel). It would have Sherman tier hit points/armor, but with Jackson gun performance (tweaked as described above to be more heavy tank focussed). This change would be more ok, because the stock US would now have a seriously effective AT gun in the captain's tier. It would also make more sense having the M10 be stock, since it was in reality the far more common TD.

Well, if you can show me some replays where crew-hopping was a game changing difference, I'd change my mind. But with Allies, positioning/micro > vet.

Anyway, just my opinion. The PITA micro of US late game makes me furious vs what I have to do as any other faction.

It would be much better to reduce micro of vehicle crews by giving them an option to automatically hop back in after fully repairing than totally gutting the mechanic. It is legitimately a ridiculously cool new mechanic that is a defining point to the USF.

Pershing, USF is the only Army without a heavy. Where else am I gonna use my heavy skin lol?

My issue with USF (late) game
Everything requires more micro and none of your vehicles have the hp or gimmick abilites to survive out of bad situations:
-planting clusters of mines
-recrewing vehicles after youre done repairing
-armor on shermans and jacksons is pathetic, might not even exist at all. shrecks will always penetrate (this is probably the thing I hate most, shrecks are way too easy to use)
-Activating the amulance heal. medics out of the ambulance don't stay put
-You do not have proper mines. M20 mines are great except you will need to go lieutenant and any player worth his salt will instantly buy sweepers and check where the m20 has been. The anti vehicle mines must be placed in clusters and the outcome is purely RNG
-support weapons have no health. atguns with 4 men will get 2-3 shot by tigers, 50cals will get riflenaded to death and pack howitzers require 3 men to work. So you keep the pack howie in the back except its autofire range is ridiculously low
Riflemen veterancy is terrible, the atnade takes ages to fire resulting in way more losses than cons and grens
-You have too many useless popcap. Major takes up popcap, ambulance, I would say captain is also waste at fighting anything other than pumas

this all culminates when fighting (king) tigers. You need 2 jackson to scare of tigers. Fuel cost is comparable except you don't have any AI. so you need riflemen in front to scout to get the nice 60 range. Riflemen get 2-3 shot by tigers. The moment you do not have vision you're screwed. Granted this should never happen but Other factions have the HP or abilties to survive. Here a tiger shows up at 40 range with your 2 jackson you will most likely lose it, the speed it has over the tiger gets nullified when tigers are vet 1(blitz on heavies, another stupid idea). You can't bait it over mines when youve gone captain


Sorry for the rant but the US faction is so incomplete even when all of the tier units would be worth it

My issue with USF (late) game
Everything requires more micro and none of your vehicles have the hp or gimmick abilites to survive out of bad situations:
-planting clusters of mines
-recrewing vehicles after youre done repairing
-armor on shermans and jacksons is pathetic, might not even exist at all. shrecks will always penetrate (this is probably the thing I hate most, shrecks are way too easy to use)
-Activating the amulance heal. medics out of the ambulance don't stay put
-You do not have proper mines. M20 mines are great except you will need to go lieutenant and any player worth his salt will instantly buy sweepers and check where the m20 has been. The anti vehicle mines must be placed in clusters and the outcome is purely RNG
-support weapons have no health. atguns with 4 men will get 2-3 shot by tigers, 50cals will get riflenaded to death and pack howitzers require 3 men to work. So you keep the pack howie in the back except its autofire range is ridiculously low
Riflemen veterancy is terrible, the atnade takes ages to fire resulting in way more losses than cons and grens
-You have too many useless popcap. Major takes up popcap, ambulance, I would say captain is also waste at fighting anything other than pumas

this all culminates when fighting (king) tigers. You need 2 jackson to scare of tigers. Fuel cost is comparable except you don't have any AI. so you need riflemen in front to scout to get the nice 60 range. Riflemen get 2-3 shot by tigers. The moment you do not have vision you're screwed. Granted this should never happen but Other factions have the HP or abilties to survive. Here a tiger shows up at 40 range with your 2 jackson you will most likely lose it, the speed it has over the tiger gets nullified when tigers are vet 1(blitz on heavies, another stupid idea). You can't bait it over mines when youve gone captain


Sorry for the rant but the US faction is so incomplete even when all of the tier units would be worth it

This X 100. You have summarized exactly why it is so hard to play USF late game.

My issue with USF (late) game
Everything requires more micro and none of your vehicles have the hp or gimmick abilites to survive out of bad situations:
-planting clusters of mines
-recrewing vehicles after youre done repairing
-armor on shermans and jacksons is pathetic, might not even exist at all. shrecks will always penetrate (this is probably the thing I hate most, shrecks are way too easy to use)
-Activating the amulance heal. medics out of the ambulance don't stay put
-You do not have proper mines. M20 mines are great except you will need to go lieutenant and any player worth his salt will instantly buy sweepers and check where the m20 has been. The anti vehicle mines must be placed in clusters and the outcome is purely RNG
-support weapons have no health. atguns with 4 men will get 2-3 shot by tigers, 50cals will get riflenaded to death and pack howitzers require 3 men to work. So you keep the pack howie in the back except its autofire range is ridiculously low
Riflemen veterancy is terrible, the atnade takes ages to fire resulting in way more losses than cons and grens
-You have too many useless popcap. Major takes up popcap, ambulance, I would say captain is also waste at fighting anything other than pumas

this all culminates when fighting (king) tigers. You need 2 jackson to scare of tigers. Fuel cost is comparable except you don't have any AI. so you need riflemen in front to scout to get the nice 60 range. Riflemen get 2-3 shot by tigers. The moment you do not have vision you're screwed. Granted this should never happen but Other factions have the HP or abilties to survive. Here a tiger shows up at 40 range with your 2 jackson you will most likely lose it, the speed it has over the tiger gets nullified when tigers are vet 1(blitz on heavies, another stupid idea). You can't bait it over mines when youve gone captain


Sorry for the rant but the US faction is so incomplete even when all of the tier units would be worth it

Waiting for ma Jumbo commander to bounce all dem shells so other stuff can actually do its job without falling apart. But yeah, massive micro is needed compared to other factions....

My issue with USF (late) game
Everything requires more micro and none of your vehicles have the hp or gimmick abilites to survive out of bad situations:
-planting clusters of mines
-recrewing vehicles after youre done repairing
-armor on shermans and jacksons is pathetic, might not even exist at all. shrecks will always penetrate (this is probably the thing I hate most, shrecks are way too easy to use)
-Activating the amulance heal. medics out of the ambulance don't stay put
-You do not have proper mines. M20 mines are great except you will need to go lieutenant and any player worth his salt will instantly buy sweepers and check where the m20 has been. The anti vehicle mines must be placed in clusters and the outcome is purely RNG
-support weapons have no health. atguns with 4 men will get 2-3 shot by tigers, 50cals will get riflenaded to death and pack howitzers require 3 men to work. So you keep the pack howie in the back except its autofire range is ridiculously low
Riflemen veterancy is terrible, the atnade takes ages to fire resulting in way more losses than cons and grens
-You have too many useless popcap. Major takes up popcap, ambulance, I would say captain is also waste at fighting anything other than pumas

this all culminates when fighting (king) tigers. You need 2 jackson to scare of tigers. Fuel cost is comparable except you don't have any AI. so you need riflemen in front to scout to get the nice 60 range. Riflemen get 2-3 shot by tigers. The moment you do not have vision you're screwed. Granted this should never happen but Other factions have the HP or abilties to survive. Here a tiger shows up at 40 range with your 2 jackson you will most likely lose it, the speed it has over the tiger gets nullified when tigers are vet 1(blitz on heavies, another stupid idea). You can't bait it over mines when youve gone captain


Sorry for the rant but the US faction is so incomplete even when all of the tier units would be worth it

Couldn't have said it better.


Back on topic I think the only way to make it easier to play USA late game is to balance out the Jackson. Relic wont switch the m10 for the Jackson so lets make it so the unit scales better into late game axis armor. Reduce riflemen reinforce cost by 1-3 mp. Increase pen for jackson, decrease damage. Make the medtruck free popcap unless u pop out the medics and so on...

Give the jackson WAYY more pen and normal damage,and allow it to get even MORE pen and damage when using APCR rounds,move the APCR to vet 2,give both shermans 800 hp,and make the AP rounds on sherman consistent against rear armor of heavies,and USF is set.

The Jackson needs normal damage, but it really doesn't need the same pen as the non-turreted TD's. The Jackson is the most mobile medium TD in the game, and it shouldn't have a buttload of pen compared to the regular more restricted TD's.

It should do normal damage and have a better ROF, that way with good micro you can put out a lot of damage while remaining mobile.

Make APCR rounds like HEAT shells, increases pen and damage but make's it have a slower ROF.

Easy Eight deserves 800 HP IMO, but the regular sherman just needs a nice ROF and accuracy buff.

Overall what USF needs is just better commanders. OKW has excellent stock units like USF, but actually has (mostly) good commanders.

Most USF commanders are just bleh, not really adding anything cool. Armor, mechanized, rifle are all extremely lack luster, with mechanized and armor just being outright terrible.

This thread makes me happy.

There are a lot of things that can be tweaked, but in the end the vast majority of USF vehicle micro is simply keeping them away from the ridiculous, ubiquitous shrek blob. Shreks automatically penetrate nearly all usf, and soviet for that matter, tanks. And since the shreks benefit from vet accuracy bonuses intended for small arms their long range accuracy goes from good at base to 100% at vet.

Playing with USF vehicles would be vastly more enjoyable if they could be skillfully used against OKW without the slightest pathing hiccup resulting in lost armor.


That aside...

Jackson would do well with reduced gun damage partially compensated by increased rof, along with a significant penetration buff. This would allow them to be more consistent against heavy armor without them shutting ostheer tier 3 play down.

Maybe the ambulance should packup/deploy (fairly quickly and automatically like the okw flaktrak) and provide permanent out of combat healing and reinforcement.

USF weapon teams are difficult to use effectively; I feel all weapon teams need to lose the -25% rec acc penalty. Pak howitzer could use a normal autofire range just like the ig18.

Yeah, the situation would be much improved if the accuracy and/or penetration of Volks shrecks was reduced.

Overall what USF needs is just better commanders. OKW has excellent stock units like USF, but actually has (mostly) good commanders.

Most USF commanders are just bleh, not really adding anything cool. Armor, mechanized, rifle are all extremely lack luster, with mechanized and armor just being outright terrible.

INSTEAD OF FIXING THE GAME LET'S GIVE USF COMMANDERS THAT THEY HAVE TO USE TO REMAIN COMPETITIVE

- Alex "sturmfront" zandvar