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USF Pack Howitzer

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Alexzandvar
26 Mar 2015, 20:01 PM
#101
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2015, 19:54 PMBrachiaraidos


Longer autofire range, much faster barrage cooldown, better RoF, better accuracy at all ranges.

The LeIG is substantially better, but only because the Pack Howitzer is completely useless.

The only reason I ever take them these days is if I recrew a stolen one and leave the squad at minimum size, for the pack or the LeIG.


IIRC the LeIG was 20/40MP cheaper, but it's been so long since I built one I could well just be wrong about that. They're both trash, is the point, and both substantially worse than the universally cheaper 120mm mortar


The LeIG is worse than the Pack Howitzer in almost ever stat, and the barrage is utter garbage.

Really the Pack Howitzer isn't useless, it just needs to be used at far to close a range to be effective. It has way more infantry wiping ability than the ISG, but that isn't saying much.

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elchino7
26 Mar 2015, 20:48 PM
#102
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Both are just useful when they are on direct fire. Used as mortar they suck.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

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What Doth Life?!
26 Mar 2015, 21:10 PM
#103
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HEAT barrage at vet 2 for Pack Howitzer does a ton of AOE to ALL targets. I'm talking penetrating hits on super heavies kind of damage. As for the scatter, use a spotter you dopes. Pathfinders are a Pack's best friend.

I am thrilled when a player fields an LEIG against me because then I get to make Pack Howitzer and punish him for it. Pack Howi is a much better unit.
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sherlock
27 Mar 2015, 11:18 AM
#104
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2015, 20:01 PMAlexzandvar


The LeIG is worse than the Pack Howitzer in almost ever stat, and the barrage is utter garbage.


Please refrain from spreading false information.
















pack howiele ig
damage8080
ready aim time max0.50.125
ready aim time min0.1250.125
aoe radius64
fire wind down21
fire wind up0.50.875
average1.250.9375
penetration8575
max range80100
reload max7.27.1
reload min6.66.5
scater angle97.5
distance scatter max1412


The 2 stats the pack howie beats the lef is aoe radius and penetration, the last of the two is rather useless if you're trying to kill infantry.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2015, 20:01 PMAlexzandvar

Really the Pack Howitzer isn't useless, it just needs to be used at far to close a range to be effective. It has way more infantry wiping ability than the ISG, but that isn't saying much.

"Far to close range" covers every possible range ;)

Both units have their uses. However the Le ig's autofire gets better with vet (double fire per salvo), while the howie's remains the same. The 50% more damage at vet 5 (hard to reach) also increase it's infantry lethality since it means that the damage drop-off outwards is less or rather the damage done higher. Both units do not get increased range for their autofire at vet 3 despite the tool-tips suggesting as much. The increase is only for their abilities.
Help test the USF teching adjustment mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357
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gokkel
27 Mar 2015, 15:04 PM
#105
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Posts: 542

@Sherlock: I am pretty sure Vet 4 doesn't give the LeIG double shots per autofire salvo, it just doubles the total amount of shots fired during the barrage ability. At least that is my experience from the few times I got it to Vet4. The veterancy description is written in a rather unclear way and I believe that it used to actually give you double shots on autofire, but it must have been ninja changed at some point or something.

The only veterancy bonus the leIG gets for autofire is at veterancy 5, that means basically never in a normal game. Veterancy 1 is pretty much useless unless your enemy somehow forgets about a light vehicle somewhere on the map for a significant time period, and even then you need luck to hit. Veterancy 2 gives you survivability, a bonus that would make more sense as Vet 4 or 5 when you already have some useful veterancy bonus worth protecting. Vet 3+4 are ok, but only help you on barrage ability; just have to remember to use it frequently against static targets. Veterancy 5 is good, but out of reach.
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Sarantini
27 Mar 2015, 15:25 PM
#106
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Yes the leig has terrible veterancy bonuses. the doubling of the shots fired per barrage (4 to 8) is almost negligible since the barrage cooldown is so short anyway you can fire as soon as the 4 shots are done
But the pack howitzer doesn't have that great bonuses either apart from the heat barrage
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Alexzandvar
27 Mar 2015, 15:29 PM
#107
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 11:18 AMsherlock


Please refrain from spreading false information.
















pack howiele ig
damage8080
ready aim time max0.50.125
ready aim time min0.1250.125
aoe radius64
fire wind down21
fire wind up0.50.875
average1.250.9375
penetration8575
max range80100
reload max7.27.1
reload min6.66.5
scater angle97.5
distance scatter max1412


The 2 stats the pack howie beats the lef is aoe radius and penetration, the last of the two is rather useless if you're trying to kill infantry.


"Far to close range" covers every possible range ;)

Both units have their uses. However the Le ig's autofire gets better with vet (double fire per salvo), while the howie's remains the same. The 50% more damage at vet 5 (hard to reach) also increase it's infantry lethality since it means that the damage drop-off outwards is less or rather the damage done higher. Both units do not get increased range for their autofire at vet 3 despite the tool-tips suggesting as much. The increase is only for their abilities.


Except for the fact AoE is everything when it comes to killing infantry. Squad wipes are also stupid easy to pull off versus Axis compared to allies thanks to new bunching mechanics + 4 men squads.
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Katitof
27 Mar 2015, 15:51 PM
#108
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 15:29 PMAlexzandvar


Except for the fact AoE is everything when it comes to killing infantry. Squad wipes are also stupid easy to pull off versus Axis compared to allies thanks to new bunching mechanics + 4 men squads.

Actually, the scatter is everything so, as per usual, you're wrong.
Compare StuG-E and IS-2 for relevance.
IS-2 is nowhere near StuG-E in killing infantry and it have lot more AoE and damage.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Alexzandvar
27 Mar 2015, 16:04 PM
#109
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 15:51 PMKatitof

Actually, the scatter is everything so, as per usual, you're wrong.
Compare StuG-E and IS-2 for relevance.
IS-2 is nowhere near StuG-E in killing infantry and it have lot more AoE and damage.


AoE is everything because being able to do more damage over a wider area ensures more squad wipes. The StuG E is better at killing enemy infantry than the IS2 because the StuG is a dedicated anti-infantry tank but even then the StuG E's 1 shot ability is far less due to it's AoE damage dropping off hard were the IS2 has a more gentle curve with higher damage.

The Axis issue of 4 men squads means when facing units with higher AoE your more likely to get squad wiped. For allies this isn't as much of an issue due to higher squad counts. There is a reason the Stug Ausf E isn't very good VS soviets.

The ISG is crap because even when you do hit you won't be killing much at all, but the Pack Howitzer is facing smaller squads that are easier to 1 shot while having higher AoE.

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daspoulos
27 Mar 2015, 16:12 PM
#110
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This is true in a global passive sense. As allies your squads are much harder to wipe via HE or even bullets. Over time if your squads are getting wiped by say scotts, 120s, or kats. Yet you win most infantry engagements. You will eventually lose the infantry war because you simply cannot keep up with the immense bleed of losing squads and veterancy. Atleast okw squads become more resistant to bullets with super vet and 5 man volks help. As ostheer its wipe city. These passive sort of pacing things are what people like to ignore quite a bit, I've seen people abuse whatever they can with strats they focus on near instant squad wipes. Like dual 120s with isu152, or double scotts. Demoes sorta, etc. Regardless of any tactic in this game. Things that squad wipe in a sense are better than any other unit in the game. This has become more true ever since the stupid squad bunching that relic is far to lazy to adjust.
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Katitof
27 Mar 2015, 16:12 PM
#111
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No, being able to HIT the squad is what wipes it.
AoE helps here, but is not a main stat, unless your shooting nuclear missiles at your target.

And it doesn't matter if its one shot or two if at the end squad got wiped rapidly without giving much space for reaction.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Alexzandvar
27 Mar 2015, 16:17 PM
#112
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 16:12 PMKatitof
No, being able to HIT the squad is what wipes it.
AoE helps here, but is not a main stat, unless your shooting nuclear missiles at your target.

And it doesn't matter if its one shot or two if at the end squad got wiped rapidly without giving much space for reaction.


The minute a squad is hit and loses a few models it will retreat, but with 1 shot squad wipes you have no time to react at all. Just boom and your dead.

It's the reason why Soviets are so powerful, they have a lot of tools to wipe squads very fast.

The Pack Howitzer isn't great, it's just okay. The ISG is legit garbage because you need to be using it in direct fire to hit anything, and it still doesn't do enough AoE to reliable wipe and kill squads.

The ISG can't destroy buildings very well either while being expensive, which sucks because it's a big hole in OKW's tool box.

TLDR: Both the Pack and ISG need help.
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daspoulos
27 Mar 2015, 16:17 PM
#113
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 16:12 PMKatitof
No, being able to HIT the squad is what wipes it.
AoE helps here, but is not a main stat, unless your shooting nuclear missiles at your target.

And it doesn't matter if its one shot or two if at the end squad got wiped rapidly without giving much space for reaction.

When I say wipes I'm talking about things that wipe in a 2 second period to instantaneously. The uncertainty on whether a squad will get wiped immediately in a certain engagement or whether you are sure you can take an explosion before retreating. Conscripts are a good example. Overall a weak squad, but very durable to explosives. Durable as in hard to wipe.
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sherlock
27 Mar 2015, 19:08 PM
#114
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 15:04 PMgokkel
@Sherlock: I am pretty sure Vet 4 doesn't give the LeIG double shots per autofire salvo, it just doubles the total amount of shots fired during the barrage ability. At least that is my experience from the few times I got it to Vet4. The veterancy description is written in a rather unclear way and I believe that it used to actually give you double shots on autofire, but it must have been ninja changed at some point or something.


You're actually right here, for some reason I recalled one instance where the le ig bugged out and actually shot twice after each other, possibly because of an ending barrage or something, and assumed it was this, but as you correctly stated it just dubbles the shots fired in the barrage.
Help test the USF teching adjustment mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357
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akula
28 Mar 2015, 11:37 AM
#115
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Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2015, 15:06 PMdaspoulos

The AOE is fine, you think one shots should be more prevalent? The only thing a unit like this deserves is a cost decrease, and a range increase or fire rate increase. Anything above 4 AOE nowadays is pretty good one shot material.


I am referring to the AOE of barrage only to clarify.
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PITZburgKID
3 Apr 2015, 13:48 PM
#116
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Posts: 9

how come it cant retreat for that almost 500 man power cost..?
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frostbite
3 Apr 2015, 21:04 PM
#117
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Posts: 593

yea cant retreat its slow rate of fire bad acc, and more cost. and same suppress as leig but leig suppress more cuz acc
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Vuther
4 Apr 2015, 03:07 AM
#118
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2015, 16:17 PMAlexzandvar
The Pack Howitzer isn't great, it's just okay. The ISG is legit garbage because you need to be using it in direct fire to hit anything

So does the Pack, though I still generally find the ISG more underwhelming at even that range as well.
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