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Grens...

2 Mar 2015, 09:56 AM
#61
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I am convinced that Ostheer desperately needs the ability to make green cover. It's a serious drawback, being able to put down green cover (sandbags, tank traps) is what you need to punish units that try to close in, it's also making harassing more effective, because when the enemy tries to clear a cutoff which is protected by green covered units in ends up in a loss or significant mp bleed at least!

Well, you have trenches.
Its not OKW, can't have everything stock.
2 Mar 2015, 10:01 AM
#62
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420

It would be nice is our pioneers could actually carry their weight and be a semi-decent CQC unit for T1. Sure their DPS is semi-decent at close, but they have to be in hugging range


according to coh2-stats.com pios reach their max dps at 8 range, that is not hugging, cons for instance have their max at 0

pio squad at range 8: 21 dps, grens 16 dps.

each pio entity models deals twice as much dmg as a con entity at 8 range.

However the problem with pios, they don't get combat efficient veterancy boni.
2 Mar 2015, 10:12 AM
#63
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3


Well, you have trenches.
Its not OKW, can't have everything stock.


Why so focused on OKW? Every faction has stock green cover except for Ostheer.
Trenches are locked away in rather bad commanders and are bad in general.
2 Mar 2015, 10:29 AM
#64
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Why so focused on OKW? Every faction has stock green cover except for Ostheer.
Trenches are locked away in rather bad commanders and are bad in general.

Every faction have weapon upgrade for basic troops except for soviets.
Every faction have access to heavy tank except for USF.
Every faction have 60 range stock TD except for Ostheer.
Every faction have mobile reinforcing transport except for OKW.
Every faction can put down mines with basic builder except for USF.
Every faction have variety of openings except for USF.
Every faction have stock infantry that scales well into late game except for soviets.
Every faction have flexible tiering with varied units except for soviets.

I could go on for a whole day, but you should see the point already.
2 Mar 2015, 10:42 AM
#65
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3



Yes I got your point and also usually see in that way I also could continue your list, but green cover is such a crucial mechanic which is easy to implement and would easily solve a lot of problems Ostheer has at the moment.
It's far better to give them sandbags than to make them a 5 gren squads or overbuff them crazily.
2 Mar 2015, 10:49 AM
#66
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

Every faction have variety of openings except for USF.


You could always go for an ambulance opening. :snfCHVGame::snfBarton:
2 Mar 2015, 10:54 AM
#67
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I believe you've misquoted steel Keepo.
2 Mar 2015, 10:56 AM
#68
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 611



Yes I got your point and also usually see in that way I also could continue your list, but green cover is such a crucial mechanic which is easy to implement and would easily solve a lot of problems Ostheer has at the moment.
It's far better to give them sandbags than to make them a 5 gren squads or overbuff them crazily.


I agree with you sandbags 100%, especially on certain maps. Grens in green cover are quite viable or at the very least can hold out much longer before needing to retreat. Some maps it can be suicide when caught out of position especially since grens are often outnumbered.

So much keeps coming back to shit map design..

It does seem weird that the faction that need to fight at distance (ie not advance ) is not given sandbags, yet soviets who need to advance, flank, throw molotovs can build sandbags. Probably has to do with ost be so strong at release and soviets weak. After all the changes certain initial design errors are becoming increasingly evident..

Just another example of changing things from the origional just for the sake of change..
2 Mar 2015, 11:16 AM
#69
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

I believe you've misquoted steel Keepo.
Insomnia OP. :snfAmi:
2 Mar 2015, 11:55 AM
#70
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420


Every faction have weapon upgrade for basic troops except for soviets.
Every faction have access to heavy tank except for USF.
Every faction have 60 range stock TD except for Ostheer.
Every faction have mobile reinforcing transport except for OKW.
Every faction can put down mines with basic builder except for USF.
Every faction have variety of openings except for USF.
Every faction have stock infantry that scales well into late game except for soviets.
Every faction have flexible tiering with varied units except for soviets &Ostheer.



corrected that for you.

Soviets have flexible tiering, ost hasn't, ost has varied units, soviets haven't
2 Mar 2015, 12:03 PM
#71
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Grenadiers cant punish enemy squads for closing with impunity earlygame -main issue.It was just poor design by relic to make rifles better at all ranges.Price difference means nothing if u get pushed off map for 40 mp,have teching and free unit disparity to pile on.
2 Mar 2015, 12:11 PM
#72
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Grenadiers cant punish enemy squads for closing with impunity earlygame -main issue.It was just poor design by relic to make rifles better at all ranges.Price difference means nothing if u get pushed off map for 40 mp,have teching and free unit disparity to pile on.

They are not supposed to, close range is their intended weakness.
You have pios and MG42 to make it difficult/less rewarding to close range on them.

Also, rifles aren't 240mp, they have all the right to be better, if anything the question should be why penals are so weak at range while ALL other carbine prifle weapons are still effective at longer ranges, garands, M1 carbines, G43, all of them excel at short range and mid, but are still potent at long.

Grenspam is not supposed to stand up against rifles by design.
Some reminder for you:
2 Mar 2015, 13:22 PM
#73
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420

Also i think the g43 upgrade should be non-doc to compete with rifles ate vet 3


What? Grens better veterancy than rifles. Fact rifles have worst veterancy of all core infantry.
2 Mar 2015, 13:25 PM
#74
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Mar 2015, 11:55 AMofield


corrected that for you.

Soviets have flexible tiering, ost hasn't, ost has varied units, soviets haven't


Cant agree with you. Ostheer is the most flexible faction. You want sniper and mg? No problem. Maybe Pak and sniper? Or scout car and pak? In first 2 tiers ost has everything. You cant say that about any other faction since Soviets or usf have to decide if they want at gun/mg or sniper/mg. Ostheer can get everything.
2 Mar 2015, 15:05 PM
#75
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned

Like in vcoh. i want a logistic kompany upgrade in the HQ, increasing gren squads to 5.

While disabling the lmg, but allowing hem to get g43's
2 Mar 2015, 15:50 PM
#76
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

No way guys, I would rather have the LMG on Grens than a 5th man. The LMG is what keeps the grens in fights mid-late game, with green cover they rape. Don't forget Ostheer is muni dependent and if a player is dumping muni on Grens than I want this investment to pay off against infantry.
2 Mar 2015, 16:11 PM
#77
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Cant agree with you. Ostheer is the most flexible faction. You want sniper and mg? No problem. Maybe Pak and sniper? Or scout car and pak? In first 2 tiers ost has everything. You cant say that about any other faction since Soviets or usf have to decide if they want at gun/mg or sniper/mg. Ostheer can get everything.


Not it isn't. Soviets can chose tiers based on what they want/need, as Ostheer you have almost no choice but to waste your fuel/mp to make a tier for a single unit or just wait for call ins.

Both Soviets and Ostheer have expensive teching, it's just that one actually has the ability to refuse to tech beyond even their first tier building because the entire faction was designed to be a call in meta faction.

I can't go tech 1 into Tigers/Elefants as Ost. But I can absolutely go t2 into any call in doctrine in the game as soviets.
2 Mar 2015, 16:36 PM
#78
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

Dangerous ideas in here. I'd agree that Ost needs something vs USF. The proposed idea of the non-doc G43 is that the Grens will completely overshadow the Conscripts which, in turn, would need a buff.
2 Mar 2015, 16:47 PM
#79
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Not it isn't. Soviets can chose tiers based on what they want/need, as Ostheer you have almost no choice but to waste your fuel/mp to make a tier for a single unit or just wait for call ins.

Both Soviets and Ostheer have expensive teching, it's just that one actually has the ability to refuse to tech beyond even their first tier building because the entire faction was designed to be a call in meta faction.

I can't go tech 1 into Tigers/Elefants as Ost. But I can absolutely go t2 into any call in doctrine in the game as soviets.


No no and no.
Chose tiers based on what soviets need? What is I need maxim but 10min later I will need snipers? What if I need sniper but later I will need mortar? OST tiers are the most flexible. You always bulid T1 and T2, no matter what. In those 2 tiers you have everything. Then you can make Pz4. Soviets can't gor for T1,T2 and T3/4.

And Ostheer faction is not call in?

In first to tiers you have everything what Soviets have. And everything is better except sniper.
So basically you can do T1+T2+Tiger.
2 Mar 2015, 17:59 PM
#80
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



No no and no.
Chose tiers based on what soviets need? What is I need maxim but 10min later I will need snipers? What if I need sniper but later I will need mortar? OST tiers are the most flexible. You always bulid T1 and T2, no matter what. In those 2 tiers you have everything. Then you can make Pz4. Soviets can't gor for T1,T2 and T3/4.

And Ostheer faction is not call in?

In first to tiers you have everything what Soviets have. And everything is better except sniper.
So basically you can do T1+T2+Tiger.


But you will never ever have the resources to use everything. I HAVE to make t1 because it has my basic infantry in it. I HAVE to make t2 because it has my AT guns in it.

You can easily go t0 -> t2 -> call ins as Soviets because that way you get AT guns, Maxims, Mortars, and basic infantry. And you don't need to pay anything for getting cons at the start.

So what if Ostheer has better stock units, the faction has an entirely different design philosophy from Soviets. There is a reason so many soviet docs give you elite infantry at 2 CP and tanks later. That's because Commander units are your bread and butter, for Ostheer it's your non-doc units.

The only problem is that Ostheer T3 is under preforming and T4 is expensive as fuck, which has created the silly call in meta issue for them. As said before Soviets can squeak by because they are entirely DESIGNED around call in meta fuckery.
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