OKW manpower penalty?

Wow the USF must be winning ALOT in your game mode of choice. That great early game and all...Many games must be won! Since an early game advantage is ALWAYS better then a late game advantage! Ask anyone! Thus it should be reflected in their Win percentages in team game modes! Oh wait........

Not to mention USF MP bleed is higher than OKW is (expensive mainline infantry vs 235 vet 5 bullshit). Not to mention USF struggle vs Kubel spams (just reverse the MG jeep Ja). Lastly, USF late game Heavy tank sucks compare to King Tiger! Oh wait......

I guess USF does struggle against Kubel spam if you ignore smoke grenades existing.

And your MP bleed isn't going to be all that high early game unless your literally running right into his Sturms instead of hitting them from cover. Rifleman walk all over Volks.

I guess USF does struggle against Kubel spam if you ignore smoke grenades existing.

And your MP bleed isn't going to be all that high early game unless your literally running right into his Sturms instead of hitting them from cover. Rifleman walk all over Volks.

Right...I am gonna throw a nade and Kubel reverses. Right...I am gonna spend fuel and MP first 5 minutes of the game and lose early game harassment and aggression.

Right...I am gonna throw a nade and Kubel reverses. Right...I am gonna spend fuel and MP first 5 minutes of the game and lose early game harassment and aggression.

Well you don't need to make a building to get your infantry out, so I fail to see how grenades are a bad investment when they can really mess your opponent up.

if you make his kubel/kubels retreat then he's going to lose his support, he loses his support he loses his Volks, he loses his volks he loses map control.

I know it's a popular meme ATM on .org to refer to OKW as OP in every scenario, but early game the ball is in the USF players court more than any other faction. Play aggressive with a little bit of micro and you can push the OKW player right off the field pretty early.

USF starting fuel 15. Nades 25 fuel. So yeah. By the time you have enough fuel the Kubel can push you back a few times and oh wait starting muni 0. So what by the time you get nades and retreated and waited for them to unlock because it isnt instant you MAY have enough to pop one...single...smoke nade.

Not that I have problems with Kubles I dont (1v1). But Grenades are HARDLY an early enough counter for them. Better to build an extra RE to help focus is down...

In basically every competitive setting the win rate between OKW, Soviets, and USF is about the same with Ostheer falling behind. And unless you have found a way to alter time an early game advantage is typically better in a competitive match because the early game happens before the late game.

As Axis the burden is just to survive the early game push/rush, then things start to get interesting mid game were everyone is about equal in strength, then you enter the late game were axis is better. It's stupid design any way you slice it.

It should be Early Game Equal --> Mid Game Equal --> Late Game Equal

Not Allied Advantage --> Mid game equal --> Axis Advantage.

Not true in your modes per Legends last posting showing USF being MISERABLE in large team games.

1v1 Ost struggles not so much 2v2.

OKW never struggles and Soviets only in the largest game mode.

So in YOUR game mode (3v3,4v4) fighting USF is like taking candy from a baby. So if you struggle there I feel for you. Its like beating Ost with USF in 1v1 just much much easier...

USF starting fuel 15. Nades 25 fuel. So yeah. By the time you have enough fuel the Kubel can push you back a few times and oh wait starting muni 0. So what by the time you get nades and retreated and waited for them to unlock because it isnt instant you MAY have enough to pop one...single...smoke nade.

Not that I have problems with Kubles I dont (1v1). But Grenades are HARDLY an early enough counter for them. Better to build an extra RE to help focus is down...

Well, that's an even simpler scenario. But the Kubel isn't exactly a KT, focused fire from Rifles will kill it pretty quick. It's like any other MG, just strafe left or right while another squad runs up down the middle.

I generally go 1 Rifle than 1 RE as my first two starting units. And if I don't kill his kubel (if he even gets one) I'll go early grenades.

Not true in your modes per Legends last posting showing USF being MISERABLE in large team games.

1v1 Ost struggles not so much 2v2.

OKW never struggles and Soviets only in the largest game mode.

So in YOUR game mode (3v3,4v4) fighting USF is like taking candy from a baby. So if you struggle there I feel for you. Its like beating Ost with USF in 1v1 just much much easier...

I play 2's and 3's the most. But Ostheer struggles in twos for the same reason it does in 1's. There is a reason most Axis AT's in 2's are 1 OKW and 1 Ostheer, and in 3's 2 OKW and 1 Ostheer.

USF is miserable in 4's because of the amount of micro required in order to succeed late game, but in 2's it's not that hard to pull off. USF's insanely good early game snow balls when you have more than 1 USF player, Iv seen plenty of gimmick build AT's were it's just 3 USF and you rush out so many riflemen and FP's that it's utterly overwhelming for the Axis players.

It's no secret allies require more coordination and micro, but this would be the case for OKW to if they had any way to actually do combined arms. But ATM OKW has no tanks, and they have no support weapons.

Ummm how is a 100 pop cap army any easier or harder to manage in any game mode?

I wont argue the points about W/L because there is nothing to argue. You can simply look at that ratios.

Ummm how is a 100 pop cap army any easier or harder to manage in any game mode?

I wont argue the points about W/L because there is nothing to argue. You can simply look at that ratios.

A horde of mediums is harder to micro than a heavy, so more players use heavies, but a horde of mediums WILL do a lot more for you than 1 or 2 heavies will. USF can be extremely strong late game in the right hands using good micro and abusing popcap by decrewing your tanks, but most people don't have the micro for it or know how to pop cap abuse and thus you don't see many USF players preforming well late game.

The reason I redesigned OKW like I did was to encourage more support play and managing units/tanks/artillery around the map rather than having a giant horde of infantry roaming the map like we do now.

4 Jacksons can put out a INSANE amount of damage in a short time, but it's hard to micro 4 Jacksons.

Ok so going back to game modes. Either way in any game mode regardless USF ALWAYS has to manage more units and use more Micro. Do you see the point yet where your arguement is about to break down?

IF USF can do OK in 1v1 and still have to manage that many units regardless then WHY are you saying they lose more in 4v4? See where the Logic fails there? USF regardless of game mode always micros more. Except they lose more in certain game modes....starting to see the breakdown yet?

Ok so going back to game modes. Either way in any game mode regardless USF ALWAYS has to manage more units and use more Micro. Do you see the point yet where your arguement is about to break down?

IF USF can do OK in 1v1 and still have to manage that many units regardless then WHY are you saying they lose more in 4v4? See where the Logic fails there? USF regardless of game mode always micros more. Except they lose more in certain game modes....starting to see the breakdown yet?

They lose more because the amount of micro they need to succeed in supporting and working with their team mate increases. In 1's you can handle a single player easily because you have more than enough stock units/counters to that 1 specific faction. But beyond that things get complicated.

A well coordinated Allies team can easily ruin a Axis team, IS2's backed up by Jacksons is the deadliest synergy combo out there. But again, this requires a plan and good micro which isn't very common against the average player.

Can you see the logic here Higher game mode ---> More coordination and micro required ---> Harder to play. It has nothing to do with specific units being OP or UP, rather, it has everything to do with Soviets, USF and OKW being all super cheesy factions.

How can a OKW player micro and coordinate medium tanks and support weapons that don't exist. If the entirety of OKW was adjusted to were it required about as much micro as USF did, then you would find far less players playing OKW in 3's and 4's.

If you want an example of a very very good unit nobody uses because of the micro needed for it, here it is:

4v4s are harder to play. Wow that is a FIRST. LOL ok then no point in talking to you about this. Thats the same logic behind the 1CP Shock Troops back in the day. People CAN BEAT IT! ITS BALANCED!

Anyway I have dragged this off topic far enough.

@OP

I dont know if I care one way or the other how you skin the OKW cat. As long as it gets skinned. Less manpower is one idea. Another would be reduction in power of Vet. Allow 5 levels of vet as it was designed to have but add no more combat abilities in it then 3 would have. Just different abilties. I think it needs to be toned down to make OKW not as deadly. No need to give Obers insance accuracy for example when they have good enough DPS to begin with. No need to make Volks as stronger then Shocks at dodging bullets. Then the MP would take care of itself I suspect.

4v4s are harder to play. Wow that is a FIRST. LOL ok then no point in talking to you about this. Thats the same logic behind the 1CP Shock Troops back in the day. People CAN BEAT IT! ITS BALANCED!

Anyway I have dragged this off topic far enough.

@OP

I dont know if I care one way or the other how you skin the OKW cat. As long as it gets skinned. Less manpower is one idea. Another would be reduction in power of Vet. Allow 5 levels of vet as it was designed to have but add no more combat abilities in it then 3 would have. Just different abilties. I think it needs to be toned down to make OKW not as deadly. No need to give Obers insance accuracy for example when they have good enough DPS to begin with. No need to make Volks as stronger then Shocks at dodging bullets. Then the MP would take care of itself I suspect.

Allied 4's for a coordinated and competent team is as easy as any other game mode. I'm actually agreeing with you but you can't see it because your shouting past me.

And float doesn't happen because lack of infantry losses, it happens because you have nothing to spend it on. No tanks, no support weapons. And you need to check the veteran bonus's for OKW units.

Obers only get a bonus to accuracy (as in shooting things) in vet 2, and Vet 3 Volks are on the level with just regular conscripts.

4v4s are harder to play. Wow that is a FIRST. LOL ok then no point in talking to you about this. Thats the same logic behind the 1CP Shock Troops back in the day. People CAN BEAT IT! ITS BALANCED!

Anyway I have dragged this off topic far enough.

@OP

I dont know if I care one way or the other how you skin the OKW cat. As long as it gets skinned. Less manpower is one idea. Another would be reduction in power of Vet. Allow 5 levels of vet as it was designed to have but add no more combat abilities in it then 3 would have. Just different abilties. I think it needs to be toned down to make OKW not as deadly. No need to give Obers insance accuracy for example when they have good enough DPS to begin with. No need to make Volks as stronger then Shocks at dodging bullets. Then the MP would take care of itself I suspect.

OKW will get skinned one day, just hope it is soon. As of now, OKW player is able to spam Fallschumjaegers squads late game and suffer no MP consequences.

If you enemy is spamming fallsch just crush him with tanks. You can't spam fallsch and still maintain a volks blob.

But you probably consider 1-2 Fallsch to be spam, so what's the point. Luftwaffe is one of the worst OKW doctrines atm, no idea how you could be having issues with it.

Allied 4's for a coordinated and competent team is as easy as any other game mode. I'm actually agreeing with you but you can't see it because your shouting past me.

And float doesn't happen because lack of infantry losses, it happens because you have nothing to spend it on. No tanks, no support weapons. And you need to check the veteran bonus's for OKW units.

Obers only get a bonus to accuracy (as in shooting things) in vet 2, and Vet 3 Volks are on the level with just regular conscripts.

Speak of shouting past someone. In TOTALITY all 5 LEVELS of Vet should provide no combat bonus that Vet 3 provides in its TOTALITY. I.e. All units receive a total of 29% inc accuracy recieved and accuracy within 3 levels of Vet. OKW should not break this model with 5 levels. Instead two levels should be dedicated to utility skills such as Salvage faster, nade range, new abiltiy unlocks etc.

Speak of shouting past someone. In TOTALITY all 5 LEVELS of Vet should provide no combat bonus that Vet 3 provides in its TOTALITY. I.e. All units receive a total of 29% inc accuracy recieved and accuracy within 3 levels of Vet. OKW should not break this model with 5 levels. Instead two levels should be dedicated to utility skills such as Salvage faster, nade range, new abiltiy unlocks etc.

Why not get rid of the Vet 5 system all together? Vet 5 is just a broken mechanic just like vCOH Wehr was able to purchase Vet 3 on all units.

Speak of shouting past someone. In TOTALITY all 5 LEVELS of Vet should provide no combat bonus that Vet 3 provides in its TOTALITY. I.e. All units receive a total of 29% inc accuracy recieved and accuracy within 3 levels of Vet. OKW should not break this model with 5 levels. Instead two levels should be dedicated to utility skills such as Salvage faster, nade range, new abiltiy unlocks etc.

A vet 5 squad should be more durable than a vet 3 squad because in this instant squad wipe RNG meta that person has probably done a fair bit of micro to keep said squad alive.

If we are talking about Volks, I agree that they should get less veterancy from shreks.

Why not get rid of the Vet 5 system all together? Vet 5 is just a broken mechanic just like vCOH Wehr was able to purchase Vet 3 on all units.

Because its special snowflake neat. Relic should have two abilty unlocks (some already have a few) and again the combat utility shouldnt be better then other factions when they reach vet. Especially when you consider the already advantaged state these units start with in terms of firepower (Falls/Obers/Pfuse with G43s).