Should we see recovery vehicles in CoH2?

Always loved PE's Bergetiger in CoH1. It offered a unique way to support your force by having a mobile repair bunker and by exploiting battlefield litter to recoup your losses.

Wrecks in CoH2 can be heavily exploited by OKW and to some extent the Soviets but wouldn't it be glorious to restore wrecks, especially those of your enemy? There would of course be an appropriate wreck-recover time in which your recovery vehicle is completely exposed so it wouldn't exactly be easy depending on where, relative to the front line, the wreck may be.

These vehicles could also make faster than normal repairs to damaged vehicles, making them worthwhile even without having to make recoveries. Cost-wise they would of course cost some fuel but it would have no combat capabilities and thus would not be absurdly expensive.

They could be part of some engineer inspired commanders for a couple of the factions at least.

Bergepanzer IV:



Bergepanther:



M32:



T-34 Recovery tractor:

No...

I wasnt a fan of the features of zombie medic bunkers and Bergetiger tank recovery of vCoH. Getting a unit back for free by using something else just didnt seem too fair...

UNLESS you had to pay another sum of resources to fix the vehicle, such as 2/3rds the original price of the vehicle. So if you had to pay a discounted price for fixing up a wreck then i would think that could work.

And besides, abandoned vehicles kind of have replaced this feature. For worse.

No...

I wasnt a fan of the features of zombie medic bunkers and Bergetiger tank recovery of vCoH. Getting a unit back for free by using something else just didnt seem too fair...

UNLESS you had to pay another sum of resources to fix the vehicle, such as 2/3rds the original price of the vehicle. So if you had to pay a discounted price for fixing up a wreck then i would think that could work.

And besides, abandoned vehicles kind of have replaced this feature. For worse.

I think 2/3rds would make the whole process more trouble than it'd be worth really. Maybe something closer to 10-15% would be feasible considering:

1) You need to buy the recovery vehicle.
2) You have an undamaged wreck.
3) Manage to get to the wreck in one piece.
4) Manage to protect the ARV while it salvages the wreck, which might take longer the heavier the wreck is.

and this is another idea but

5) The vehicle would not get 100% health right away and would need to be towed or pulled back somewhere safer for complete repairs?

Wouldn't really have any use unless you changed the way vehicle wrecks worked, because you can easily clear the field of wrecks using even light AT guns/tanks.

The "flame out" wrecks that happen with WFA tanks would make the most sense, but still, you can easily kill those tanks to.

Bergertiger would be sexy

No. The last thing we need is zombie tanks.

Nobody in the world wants to spend all their medium tanks in losses having to chase down the absurdity that is a Tiger Ace / KT / Jagdtiger into the back of the enemy base only for all of them to be handed back free to the enemy team. Good luck clearing out the wrecks from there.

Nope, no, nada.

It's a neat idea, if not zombie tanks then 50% of the tank's resources back, but ultimately there are far larger priorities...

I see Brach's point so I propose this: nerf heavy tanks into being low risk low reward with a very high fuel and popcap cost so no sane player would get multiples and use the one they have as a force multiplier.

No. The last thing we need is zombie tanks.

Nobody in the world wants to spend all their medium tanks in losses having to chase down the absurdity that is a Tiger Ace / KT / Jagdtiger into the back of the enemy base only for all of them to be handed back free to the enemy team. Good luck clearing out the wrecks from there.

Nope, no, nada.

Remember that things like pop cap still apply, and wrecks as they are now are easily destroyed, especially in a clusterfuck situation that you are describing.

Besides, you'd be playing VP, not annihilation, no one is forcing you to chase anything back into it's base and if you do, there'd be that risk. I see no issue.

And on top of that this recovery vehicle would be tied to a commander...so that player would have no access to a heavy tank at all, assuming it wouldn't be an OKW commander.

Has anyone wondered how a conscript squad can recrew and operate a tank seriously though did they go to German military tank school (or whatever you call it where you learn how to drive tanks) before the war

Why are US tank crews the only ones who can be bothered to exit and repair their own tanks for that matter.

Remember that things like pop cap still apply, and wrecks as they are now are easily destroyed, especially in a clusterfuck situation that you are describing.

Exceeding the pop cap is easily done already, what does that matter?

Besides, you'd be playing VP, not annihilation, no one is forcing you to chase anything back into it's base and if you do, there'd be that risk. I see no issue.

Oh gosh, you're right! I'll use my T-34-85's and play a game of attrition against that single Tiger Ace. Because every time we deal HP to each other, I lose one of my two mediums, and that can't possibly end badly for.. oh wait yes it does.

The medium/heavy combat mechanics means you will almost always lose one, if not more, of the tanks you swarm a heavy with. This means you have to chase for the kill, because without doing that you're just going to bleed hundreds of fuel and feed vet to that heavy tank.

So no. Zombie tanks is still a horrible idea that even further makes mediums obsolete and heavy call in meta more rewarding.

And on top of that this recovery vehicle would be tied to a commander...so that player would have no access to a heavy tank at all, assuming it wouldn't be an OKW commander.

1v1 is the least played game mode. Team games are already horribly unbalanced. Let's not make it worse.

No, enough reasons above.

Exceeding the pop cap is easily done already, what does that matter?

Obviously if this feature were to be implemented there would be a stop-gap preventing the player with the recovery capability from going over the popcap by going after wrecks.

Oh gosh, you're right! I'll use my T-34-85's and play a game of attrition against that single Tiger Ace. Because every time we deal HP to each other, I lose one of my two mediums, and that can't possibly end badly for.. oh wait yes it does.

Stop playing nescient please. Anytime you charge into the opponents' base to finish off a vehicle you are taking the same make or break risk whether or not there are recovery vehicles to reconstitute wrecks.

The point is completely asinine considering if you were to fail and have your tanks destroyed...well you are probably finished match-wise anyway and further if you were successful, you'd likely have the wherewithal to fire an extra shot to destroy the enemy wreck.

The recovery vehicle has absolutely no effect on the outcome of that engagement, it only elevates the risk. That is IF a player has selected that commander to start with.

The medium/heavy combat mechanics means you will almost always lose one, if not more, of the tanks you swarm a heavy with. This means you have to chase for the kill, because without doing that you're just going to bleed hundreds of fuel and feed vet to that heavy tank.

The same situation can be reversed and the Axis could be chasing your IS-2 or reversing 152 into your base and if you have the recovery vehicles on your team you could gain the same advantage. It could add a new layer of strategy where you lure big tanks into your territory and disable and recover them if they take the bait and if you are successful in your ambush.

So no. Zombie tanks is still a horrible idea that even further makes mediums obsolete and heavy call in meta more rewarding.

You are conveniently forgetting important balance considerations like the CP level and cost of the recovery vehicle itself, the wreck recover time and how long that unit would be vulnerable, the other CP abilities of that commander...these would all be adjusted to the point where the commander would make sense.

1v1 is the least played game mode. Team games are already horribly unbalanced. Let's not make it worse.

What does the game size matter? That one player who opted to go the Recovery vehicle route means you have one less commander on the opposing side with a powerful call-in. That is huge in 2v2s and even carries weight in larger games...please tell me that you see that.

NOPE

Obviously if this feature were to be implemented there would be a stop-gap preventing the player with the recovery capability from going over the popcap.

My point isn't that there's no way to make it happen. My point is that exceesing the pop cap is already prefectly acceptable and it would be arbitrary to restrict the recovery vehicles in that matter. People would only complain. You can re-crew vehicles to go over, why not re-build?

Stop playing nescient please. Anytime you charge into the opponents' base to finish off a vehicle you are taking the same make or break risk whether or not there are recovery vehicles to reconstitute wrecks.

The point is completely asinine considering if you were to fail and have your tanks destroyed...well you are probably finished match-wise anyway and further if you were successful, you'd likely have the wherewithal to fire an extra shot to destroy the enemy wreck.

The recovery vehicle has absolutely no effect on the outcome of that engagement, it only elevates the risk. That is IF a player has selected that commander to start with.

Missing the point level world record.

The only way to kill heavies with mediums is to chase them. If you try and go face to face with them, you lose. If you try peekaboo with them, you're not a TD, so you're dead. It's a big part of why heavy call in meta is so popular; heavy tanks demand so much work to kill and reversing into your lines is easy as piddle.

The reason you chase is because the period in which your opponent has no heavy tank, after the trade off, is notably longer than the period in which you will have no mediums. In exchange for trading off in that manner you can have a period of map dominance with your next medium. Chasing into an enemy base to finish a King Tiger is currently, as it should be, a very strong tactical decision. If you get away with a medium intact, good! If you don't, still good. Allowing the recovery of those wrecks now stranded deep in enemy territory means what should have been the only viable option for killing KT's with a couple of 85's becomes feeding your opponent enormous amounts of resources, turning what should have been a defeat for them into at best a draw and at worst a tactical advantage for them.

This is why it's a bad idea- it messes with game balance in the favour of a player who should be on the back foot.

The same situation can be reversed and the Axis could be chasing your IS-2 or reversing 152 into your base and if you have the recovery vehicles on your team you could gain the same advantage. It could add a new layer of strategy where you lure big tanks into your territory and disable and recover them if they take the bait and if you are successful in your ambush.

It would be bad for the Russians, too, the KT and Tiger are just more common examples of heavy tanks and German Medium spam is so rare when Tigers are available from so many, many commanders.

CHasing into the base IS the way you usually have to deal with large/long range tanks. Killing a very expensive vehicle usually demands losing a large amount of medium armour. It's not strategy at all, it's being able to have free tanks and turning losses from both sides into a personal advantage.

So much no.

You are conveniently forgetting important balance considerations like the CP level and cost of the recovery vehicle itself, the wreck recover time and how long that unit would be vulnerable, the other CP abilities of that commander...these would all be adjusted to the point where the commander would make sense.

Bull. They're wafting smoke over the fact that the very concept of the unit is terrible.

A game based almost entirely on one concept: Unit Preservation. Veterancy, resource costs, everything in CoH2 is based around the concept of unit preservation.

Good micro preserves units and resources. Good use of cover and tratergy ensures you can combat your opponent, preserving units where he loses them. It all boils down to keeping your stuff alive and killing his for the sweet, sweet vet.

Recovery vehicles? Throw it out the window. No amount of tweaking CP arrival times or ability length or what other chaff the commander has will change the fact it screws with the one, vital, central core game mechanic.

What does the game size matter? That one player who opted to go the Recovery vehicle route means you have one less commander on the opposing side with a powerful call-in. That is huge in 2v2s and even carries weight in larger games...please tell me that you see that.

Ah yes, of course! That's why Close Air Support is currently so worthless, it has no heavy tanks! As does Urban Defense! Two worthless, never taken in 4v4 commanders.

Ignoring the fact recovery vehicles means he would, in fact, have access to heavy tanks.

It would be a cool addition to Soviets, Ostheer and USF if it just functioned like Salvage does for OKW, just getting some resources back. Otherwise, getting free units back isn't something I'd like to see.

I don't why there isn't a fuel cost to re crew abandoned tanks, or an ability to fix "flamed out" ones. Also don't get why they don't add the extra death animations/wreck types to Vanilla tanks.

My point isn't that there's no way to make it happen. My point is that exceesing the pop cap is already prefectly acceptable and it would be arbitrary to restrict the recovery vehicles in that matter. People would only complain. You can re-crew vehicles to go over, why not re-build?

Huh? Do people complain when a built unit is pending free space in your pop cap despite the build time and resources being paid up? Why would anyone complain if the recover ability was disabled once you got within 8CP (for instance) of your cap?

Missing the point level world record.

I could honestly say the same.

The only way to kill heavies with mediums is to chase them. If you try and go face to face with them, you lose. If you try peekaboo with them, you're not a TD, so you're dead. It's a big part of why heavy call in meta is so popular; heavy tanks demand so much work to kill and reversing into your lines is easy as piddle.

Please. It's not the "only" way. Flanks, mines, careful positioning/creeping of AT guns, aerial bombardment, for axis there is heavy AT positions and AT infantry. To claim that the ONLY way to take out heavies is to chase them into their base would have me thinking of whether you have ever heard of engine damage crit.

Seriously it's hard to lend an ear to your "point" when you make exaggerations like this that completely discredit your concerns.

The reason you chase is because the period in which your opponent has no heavy tank, after the trade off, is notably longer than the period in which you will have no mediums. In exchange for trading off in that manner you can have a period of map dominance with your next medium. Chasing into an enemy base to finish a King Tiger is currently, as it should be, a very strong tactical decision. If you get away with a medium intact, good! If you don't, still good. Allowing the recovery of those wrecks now stranded deep in enemy territory means what should have been the only viable option for killing KT's with a couple of 85's becomes feeding your opponent enormous amounts of resources, turning what should have been a defeat for them into at best a draw and at worst a tactical advantage for them.

Who says you need to kill every unit on your opponent's roster to win? OKW often loses not because their KT's get destroyed but because all of the KT's support crumbles. The beauty of VP means you only have to push the enemy back, not outright destroy every valuable unit they have.

Trust me, I know, i've won and lost many games with heavy tanks at base needing extensive repairs.

This is why it's a bad idea- it messes with game balance in the favour of a player who should be on the back foot.

Again you make it sound so easy when so many stars need to align for one player to raise an army of zombie tanks...I honestly do not see this situation happening often, and so often that it'd break any balance that currently exits.

Bull. They're wafting smoke over the fact that the very concept of the unit is terrible.

By your own argument recovering doesn't work because of the current balance meta, your argument, not mine....how does that make the concept itself, which exists independent of the current balance, terrible?

A game based almost entirely on one concept: Unit Preservation. Veterancy, resource costs, everything in CoH2 is based around the concept of unit preservation.

Good micro preserves units and resources. Good use of cover and tratergy ensures you can combat your opponent, preserving units where he loses them. It all boils down to keeping your stuff alive and killing his for the sweet, sweet vet.

Recovery vehicles? Throw it out the window. No amount of tweaking CP arrival times or ability length or what other chaff the commander has will change the fact it screws with the one, vital, central core game mechanic.

I'm surprised someone who is citing current balance and meta as a reason NOT to have wreck recovery, is also making the unit preservation/cover/vet argument...like look out the window...do you see that blob coming for you completely ignoring cover, strategy, safety but instead relying on human wave tactics?

Figure out how you want to argue against this. A) From a current balance POV or B) from a CoH2 core concept POV because currently they are at odds.

Ah yes, of course! That's why Close Air Support is currently so worthless, it has no heavy tanks! As does Urban Defense! Two worthless, never taken in 4v4 commanders.

Now a straw man? Really? When did I say commanders without powerful call-ins were "worthless"?

Ignoring the fact recovery vehicles means he would, in fact, have access to heavy tanks.

Word game. The player wouldn't be able to call in a heavy himself based on his commander abilities, meaning a heavy would have to come from another player's resource pool and commander choice. You know exactly what i'm talking about.

We don't need anything in COH right now besides bug fixing and balance