Best ideas you've heard today

Uh, the entire point of the T34/85 in it's stat distribution and were it's placed on the call in/time system is that it's supposed to be the Soviet version but tweaked a little. It does well versus tanks, and well against infantry, that means it's kinda superior to the Panther in AI but less so in pure AT power.

The PIV in a world with out the Jackson is just like the T34, a medium tank that kind falls off late game when the heavies come out, but since the Jackson is a thing that exists the PIV and by combination t3 just doesn't fly.

Putting it in t3 would just make the little medium armor Axis does have even more irrelevant, unless you changed the tier system and unit lists for every faction.

First off, let me quote my first response to you which got drowned off.

I also don't understand the people who say that a doctrinal T-34/85 should be better. No it should not be. Doctrinal units are there to provide additional options. 85 pigeon holes players into picking it by being a straight upgrade to a stock unit that is worthless. There's no excuse for that when it would still be balanced as a stock unit. Even more so since you would have to pay for your teching.

You guys can't complain about a call-in meta and then insist that doctrinal units should be stronger hands down. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you solve a lot of problems by making 85 a stock unit when there is no reason it shouldn't be, or you can continue whining both about the call in meta and a hypothetical 85 that will somehow suddenly be imbalanced because its unlock parameter changed from pick one of the few viable doctrines and wait until 10 CP to pay 120 fuel to unlock it and use it with any other doctrine the faction has access to.

With that out of the way, no, the tank that you're putting on a pedestal is not that much better than a Panzer IV which still has many advantages with far better veterancy and Panzer Tactician access, and MG, and Axis has heavier tanks than IS-2 in the form of King Tiger and Jagdtiger. Panther is also a very effective non-doctrinal AT.

Panzer IV never ceases to be useful; it can hold its own well against IS-2. Just not alone and not very cost effectively, but it's by far not to be considered useless. It's not less useful than T-34/85 either, which it itself is not bad.

And edit to respond to your edit: T-34/85 would be perfectly balanced at T3 and would not need to be nerfed. At all. It's a slightly better Panzer IV that's still worse in many ways.

First off, let me quote my first response to you which got drowned off.



With that out of the way, no, the tank that you're putting on a pedestal is not that much better than a Panzer IV which still has many advantages with far better veterancy and Panzer Tactician access, and MG, and Axis has heavier tanks than IS-2 in the form of King Tiger and Jagdtiger. Panther is also a very effective non-doctrinal AT.

Panzer IV never ceases to be useful; it can hold its own well against IS-2. Just not alone and not very cost effectively, but it's by far not to be considered useless. It's not less useful than T-34/85 either, which it itself is not bad.

And edit to respond to your edit: T-34/85 would be perfectly balanced at T3 and would not need to be nerfed. At all. It's a slightly better Panzer IV that's still worse in many ways.

PIV:

Hitpoints:
640.0
Armor:
180.0
Rear armor:
90.0
Max speed:
6.3
Cost: 125 fuel

Pen: 120.0/110.0/100.0

t34/85:

Hitpoints:
800.0
Armor:
160.0
Rear armor:
80.0
Max speed:
6.3
Cost: 140 fuel


I wouldn't call that big on an increase in pen and health to be "just a little bit". And again, at T3 you would be getting those 85's out around the time Ostheer is just getting t3 done, never mind t4.

@ OP

Here is the original thread. I initially created in the Lobby section because it's about game design and not that much about balance, and a moderator moved it to the balance section. And then, another moderator locked it because it should have been in the Lobby section.

So moderators, please, make a joint decision on what to do with my thread before taking action, thank you. That costed my thread valuable time which could have been used to generate traffic

You were correct in your original placement. I am sorry if you feel disentitled. I am sure that the Staff member who transferred your thread , did so in good faith. Equally, however, we apply different rules here, to what went before, on a different board.

Back to topic...

PIV:

Hitpoints:
640.0
Armor:
180.0
Rear armor:
90.0
Max speed:
6.3
Cost: 125 fuel

Pen: 120.0/110.0/100.0

t34/85:

Hitpoints:
800.0
Armor:
160.0
Rear armor:
80.0
Max speed:
6.3
Cost: 140 fuel


I wouldn't call that big on an increase in pen and health to be "just a little bit". And again, at T3 you would be getting those 85's out around the time Ostheer is just getting t3 done, never mind t4.

It is just a bit when you consider that Panzer IV has:

- Better armor (before you call the difference irrelevant, then so could the pen difference be called irrelevant, considering Allied tanks usually have weaker armor so lower pen values fare better)
- Cheaper cost
- Far Better Vet
- Cheaper teching costs
- Doctrinal Panzer Tactician Support
- MG Upgrade Option
- Superior Axis AT support (AT gun stun shot, Riegel Mines, Teller Mines, Panzerschrecks (!!!)
- Doctrinal Spotting Scope
- Doctrinal Hull-Down that makes it superior to the T-34
- Doctrinal Command Tank support

All of those except the superior AT support bit directly affect the Panzer IV, without mentioning things like ambush-camo boosted Panzerschrecks and Pak43. What can you point out for T-34/85 that directly help it that Ostheer doesn't have? All I can think of is the replacement Command 76 I suggested, on top of Button if you have it, which is a pretty useless easily circumvented ability right now. And the only one in the list above that has an analogue is the Teller Mine, with the inferior (against tanks) TM-35 mine.

Axis already has far superior support and far superior veterancy options for the Panzer IV, that any slight advantage T-34/85 has is compensated for. And before you say it, saying T-34/85 is still there until end-game when Panzer IV is replaced by Panther/Tiger is a fallacy; as T-34/85 is the heaviest thing in doctrines that have it. If for some reason someone armored assault, you'll find the T-34/85 will often be phased out in favor of the IS-2.

Now whos putting things on a pedestal.

Hull down for a pIV? That is a quick way to lose a pIV to just about anything.

Spotting scope is almost of no use for a PIV as it doesn't have range to out-shoot anything.

The at stun shot? Does that even work now?


Mg upgrade is superior? I think not

Reigel mines lol? Who even builds half tracks to lay mines ever?

Ambush camo lol.. cmon really man you are just reaching for straws now. None of these things are as godly as you seem them to be

Your rationale is the axis have stuff. Guess what? the Soviets also have stuff. I can just randomly name things sovs have and use your same argument.

Now whos putting things on a pedestal.

Hull down for a pIV? That is a quick way to lose a pIV to just about anything.

Spotting scope is almost of no use for a PIV as it doesn't have range to out-shoot anything.

The at stun shot? Does that even work now?


Mg upgrade is superior? I think not

Reigel mines lol? Who even builds half tracks to lay mines ever?

Ambush camo lol.. cmon really man you are just reaching for straws now. None of these things are as godly as you seem them to be

Your rationale is the axis have stuff. Guess what? the Soviets also have stuff. I can just randomly name things sovs have and use your same argument.

You can leave Hull Down instantaneously and the buffs are divine. Great sight and self spotting for 30 munitions is one of the best upgrades in the game. Stun shot works, it just needs to penetrate which isn't a problem for Pak40 most of the time. An MG upgrade doesn't exist for T-34 and the Panzer 4 MG is decent against infantry and aircraft. I use Riegel and Halftrack often, you don't see the value in field resuuply and vehicle immobilization? Ambush Camo is also great. Broaden your horizons.

My rationale is that Ostheer has a lot of stuff that Soviets have no analogue for and considering some innate advantages of Panzer 4 it makes sense to give the slightly better raw stats to the Soviet tank and not the Ostheer one. Right now Ost has both the better tank and better support for it while Soviets are told to use an 85 doctrine. Doesn't make sense.

Feel free to list what unique and effective support Soviets have in such a manner. Overpriced and easily circumvented button and the occasional Vet 1 B4 are all I can think of. That and Mark Target.

self spotting for P4s is negligebly useful. As soon as it moves It wouldn't be able to shoot at what it spottted anyway. Im not saying some may find a use for it with p4 but it has no effect of making a p4 superior.

Hull down is not devine enough to keep your p4 alive. Its a shoot me to death quickly sign.

The pintle mg is not as good vs inf as the t34s main gun vs inf and the p4s main gun is mediocre vs inf so that does not give the p4 a anti inf advantage, and certainly not a far superior advantage .

You use reigel half traks often good for you. Most people who want mines just use pios and save the fuel because it really makes no sense to use a fragile unit with crappy pathing, miniscule anti inf capability to lay mines with muntions you probably can't spare anyway.

Soviets have at nades, works way more reliably and cheaper then pray for it to work/or fire even, pak stun shot.

1. bad bad idea. I would rather have soviets T3/T4 buff and Axis AT capabilities scaled down, to allow soviet non-doctrinal armor to scale past 15mins without being a smoldering wreak and soviet dependency on late heavy call-in tanks.It will indirectly fix #sovietcallinmeta #Axisstall2winmeta.

The Halftrack has field reinforce and is great for it. Riegels are better at the same price.

And it's not a bad idea. A bad idea is gimping a stock unit so an actually balanced and useful version can be doctrinal. Would you like it if Panzer IV with the long 75 was doctrinal? 85 isn't Panther tier and 76 isn't even Panzer IV tier, so this is exactly what Soviets face.

And you also glossed over how this fixes the Soviet call-in meta problem without re inventing the wheel. It fixes something you too acknowledge as a problem. Why ridicule it by casually saying "bad, bad idea"? Do you call every idea you don't agree with bad?

And you also glossed over how this fixes the Soviet call-in meta problem without re inventing the wheel. It fixes something you too acknowledge as a problem. Why ridicule it by casually saying "bad, bad idea"? Do you call every idea you don't agree with bad?

it will create other balance issues. t34/85 shutting down all ostheer T3 units and it will bring back the days of SU85 meta with extra AI firepower and ostheer will have to rely on shreck pgrens blobs.

T34/85 is currently the 2nd best "medium" tank in the game. So its best not to touch Soviets callin right now, as they scaled well with ostheer callins.

self spotting for P4s is negligebly useful. As soon as it moves It wouldn't be able to shoot at what it spottted anyway. Im not saying some may find a use for it with p4 but it has no effect of making a p4 superior.

It lets you see that sneaky atgun behind your target. But yes scopes don't really have any synergy with PIV apart from the extra vision because it's a very mobile unit that already sees as far as it shoots.

Hull down is not devine enough to keep your p4 alive. Its a shoot me to death quickly sign.

It still can be left instantly, there's no real risk to it. That said not like I really use it either, it's great on paper but you almost never want to waste time on your infantry hulling down your tanks.

The pintle mg is not as good vs inf as the t34s main gun vs inf and the p4s main gun is mediocre vs inf so that does not give the p4 a anti inf advantage, and certainly not a far superior advantage .

PIV main gun is better than T34 main gun against infantry (and tanks too), PIV hull MG is better, PIV coaxial is better, and PIV has a pintle that has higher DPS than the T34 pintle+coaxial combined as well. Stop it with the "T34 is good against infantry" thing already, you can already see against OKW that T34s are pretty damn bad at killing any 5-6 man squads without going in for the crush.

As for the actual topic, I don't think t34/85s properly gated (so either an extra upgrade added somewhere, or just requiring both T3 and T4) and based on the single call-in cost from advanced warfare in the tech tree would really break anything. Don't think it would really fix anything either though, because it would still make sense to just save all your fuel and manpower by not teching because all the other vehicles except Katyusha are lackluster outside of their initial rush value.

it will create other balance issues. t34/85 shutting down all ostheer T3 units and it will bring back the days of SU85 meta with extra AI firepower and ostheer will have to rely on shreck pgrens blobs.

T34/85 is currently the 2nd best "medium" tank in the game. So its best not to touch Soviets callin right now, as they scaled well with ostheer callins.

This is purely reactionary conjecture, a product of the perfectly understandable worst case scenario thinking bias. If you read the last few pages you'll find a lot of arguments in detail about why this would not be a balance issue but a step forward in balance mainly because Panzer Iv maintains distinct advantages. Furthermore, being a doctrinal unit doesn't make the unit more balanced. Doctrinal units are not meant to be straight upgrades and being outside the tech aystem is a big enough advantage for them and they don't need to outdo stocks just because they are doctrinal. If anything, tying it to the tech system will make Ostheer T3's life easier as the enemy has to spend resources on teching as well.

And Cruzz, why do you think T3 isn't sufficient gating? It's not that much better than Panzer IV which still has many distinct advantages over 85 unlike 76 which is pathetic in comparison to PzIV.

How about putting the T-34-85 into T3. Make the T-34/76 m43 as a call-in at 4-5 CP?

The pacing of the T-34-85 should be no problem with adjusting price for the tier and the cost of the tank.

Either get a quick 76 or try to hold for later and get 85s? Sure some global unlock maybe needed aswell.

You want remove most cool factor in game? Late war german monsters fight versus early war soviets tanks.

And I have 597 hours in the game currently. I would prefer to remain anonymous, and you'll have to take my word for it. I play 2v2 exclusively though, so there might be dissonance with 1v1 exclusive players.

Not to sound like a prick, but when having balance discussions, experience matters. I have 788 hours in game and i'm still a scrub. Thus I largely stay out of balance discussions. I tend to listen to guys like Cruzz, Luvnest, Sib, etc etc. It's proven they know what they are talking about. For all we know you are a seven year old kid with a good grasp on the English language. At least having the cojones to show your player card lets people know you have some skin in the game.


on topic.

85 in t3 wouldnt be as great as you think. Facing 85s with ostheer t3 would be a nightmare. They are better than p4s. period. that 160 extra hp is a huge deal. it makes perfect sense playing okw, but it would further erode ostheer's usefulness, which has been declining for some time now.

How about putting the T-34-85 into T3. Make the T-34/76 m43 as a call-in at 4-5 CP?

The pacing of the T-34-85 should be no problem with adjusting price for the tier and the cost of the tank.

Either get a quick 76 or try to hold for later and get 85s? Sure some global unlock maybe needed aswell.

The first half is the idea. The replacement idea I had, which I also mentioned in OP is actually an offensively oriented T-34/76 command tank. The "earlier cheaper doctrinal nurfed tank" concept doesn't work and it shows on the M10 Tank Destroyer. It works for Wehr Puma because it actually has no stock analogue. So I would rather have it in the form of a command tank. And contrary to popular beliefs, Russians did have radioes.

You want remove most cool factor in game? Late war german monsters fight versus early war soviets tanks.

Late war german monsters with early war sustainable air support and well trained, almost as numerous infantry versus early war soviet tanks with gimped and barely existent air support... Sounds about right. In fact your post is rather inspiring, I am going to make a similar signature for myself as well.

Not to sound like a prick, but when having balance discussions, experience matters. I have 788 hours in game and i'm still a scrub. Thus I largely stay out of balance discussions. I tend to listen to guys like Cruzz, Luvnest, Sib, etc etc. It's proven they know what they are talking about. For all we know you are a seven year old kid with a good grasp on the English language. At least having the cojones to show your player card lets people know you have some skin in the game.


on topic.

85 in t3 wouldnt be as great as you think. Facing 85s with ostheer t3 would be a nightmare. They are better than p4s. period. that 160 extra hp is a huge deal. it makes perfect sense playing okw, but it would further erode ostheer's usefulness, which has been declining for some time now.

In response to the bolded part, I can't say you're acing it.

Not to sound like a prick, but I was completely unimpressed by your stats. I am saying that only because you started it, as you seem to be a 4v4 oriented Axis player to whom 2v2 has been rather cruel.

I don't feel like a scrub, sorry to not have joined your boat. I feel I invested a substantial amount of time in this game to at least get the right to instigate a discussion. I am not building patches on my own; just starting a discussion, so people can tell me what they think of the solutions I propose. If experienced players come and join the discussion, and take the time to present their arguments, that's even better. I am ready to debate. No matter the fluctuating quality of counterarguments against my ideas that were presented here, nobody was left without a thorough response. I'm here, I am ready to debate, and I would love nothing more than to convince you, or get converted by a more sensible argument trying. And thanks for your compliment on my grasp of English, I'm not a native speaker so it's nice of you to say that.

I've been playing Ostheer a lot. You clearly aren't a 1v1 player where neither of us can claim expertise, and 2v2 and above, Ostheer has absolutely no problems besides a few underwhelming units (Flamer Halftrack, Panzergrenadiers, Scout Car) so either you've been on an unlucky streak or you're jumping on the bandwagon. It's an excellent support faction and the primary reason OKW is overpowered in team games. I get a smile on my face whenever I see a double OKW in 2v2, because I know they can't completely let loose without the touch of Ostheer.

I talked a lot about why T-34/85 is balanced with Ostheer T3 (which I disagree is underpowered) and why it's a far smaller offense that T-34/85 should be slightly better while keeping Panzer IV great in many ways as opposed to the current matchup we have where T-34/76 is a pathetic whipping boy and an overpriced mobile landmine both with worse hard stats and far worse support options.

Moreover, if T-34/85 was overpowered against Panzer IV, such a balance issue would not have been fixed by making it doctrinal. There's no reason to be too afraid of changing status quo when moving it to T3 is hardly a buff to the unit itself. It's a buff to the faction who has to make do with both the worse tank and worse gimmicks. CP10 is free as opposed to Soviet T3, and in some fast games it even comes earlier. Panzer IV vs T-34/85 doesn't have to be a straight 1v1 in a vacuum either. Panzer IV has enough advantages. T-34/76 doesn't and never did. That's the problem and that's why its whole existence is pathetic.

If you want to read more about why this matchup would be fair, read the rest of the thread as well.

The best ideas I have heard for this game can be summarized in 1 word: Kappatch.

Lol. I'm no axis warrior, believe you me. My favorite is USF by a mile, but I get bored of being pigeonholed into 2-3 strats if I want to win.

I could give a fuck about my stats. there is no money involved, but that said I guarantee I'm a better player than you'd think by looking at my stats playing with randoms. I play 95% of my games with friends and try really crazy stuff with randoms. Ever try spamming stugs into lefh? I actually prefer 2v2 myself, just not with a random mate. I rarely get to play the 2v2s because there are always more guys around. To me the game is about having fun and socializing with Internet strangers. Definitely not about measuring dicks.


Imagine having to fight two 85s with a p4 and a stug. Even two stugs and p4 are in a world of trouble. Tell me that doesn't make you cringe. T3 doesn't pen well at all. The p4 is damn good imo for what it is. With vet 2 it's even solid in late game. That said, it's simply outclassed by the 85. That in and of itself isn't the issue. The timing is. Having 85s hit the field at the same time p4s are will not be good. There is a reason the bad ass mediums like the e8, 85, and panther come out a good five minutes after the stock mediums. It's because they pwn stock mediums. I agree with the notion that it's silly to have stock units just upgraded by doctrinal ones. There should be different roles, even if only slightly. M4a3 and the m4a3e8 are a good example of this. Or the p2 and doctrinal ostwind for okw, better yet command panther and normal panther. But making the best mediums arrive when the other guy is just getting his stock one out is clearly disadvantageous to the latter. Soviets vs Wehrmacht isn't badly balanced, why screw it up?

Lol. I'm no axis warrior, believe you me. My favorite is USF by a mile, but I get bored of being pigeonholed into 2-3 strats if I want to win.

That is precisely why I switched to Ostheer from Soviets

I could give a fuck about my stats. there is no money involved, but that said I guarantee I'm a better player than you'd think by looking at my stats playing with randoms. I play 95% of my games with friends and try really crazy stuff with randoms. Ever try spamming stugs into lefh? I actually prefer 2v2 myself, just not with a random mate. I rarely get to play the 2v2s because there are always more guys around. To me the game is about having fun and socializing with Internet strangers. Definitely not about measuring dicks.

I often have games where the heaviest thing I built was an halftrack. I use and love almost every Ostheer doctrine in the game. Lately I've been using Mobile Defense and Festung Support to good effect. I'm not too fond of the StuG simply because I don't like big fat vehicles, but I know where you're coming from. I try something different every game and Ostheer is the only faction that doesn't punish you for it. And nobody here is comparing stats then, it's just that you were the one to instigate that exchange. I didn't even check my stats once until you said that I should at least have the balls to display my stats. So if you don't care about stats, your earlier request and the manner in which you put it forward was completely atypical of you.

Imagine having to fight two 85s with a p4 and a stug. Even two stugs and p4 are in a world of trouble. Tell me that doesn't make you cringe. T3 doesn't pen well at all. The p4 is damn good imo for what it is. With vet 2 it's even solid in late game. That said, it's simply outclassed by the 85. That in and of itself isn't the issue. The timing is. Having 85s hit the field at the same time p4s are will not be good. There is a reason the bad ass mediums like the e8, 85, and panther come out a good five minutes after the stock mediums. It's because they pwn stock mediums. I agree with the notion that it's silly to have stock units just upgraded by doctrinal ones. There should be different roles, even if only slightly. M4a3 and the m4a3e8 are a good example of this. Or the p2 and doctrinal ostwind for okw, better yet command panther and normal panther. But making the best mediums arrive when the other guy is just getting his stock one out is clearly disadvantageous to the latter. Soviets vs Wehrmacht isn't badly balanced, why screw it up?

Some answers are in bold. For the last paragraph:

A far cheaper P4 and StuG combo should be creamed by 2 T-34/85s in direct confrontation and it's not balanced if this isn't the case. Ostheer can support Panzer IVs well enough to mitigate any difference between the two medium tanks. T-34/85 at T3 only makes it more widely available. It doesn't buff the unit. You keep going on and on about how it would be far better than Panzer IV, when I repeated myself so many times to you and others who then kept ignoring every argument and continued on with the "but, but think of the poor, poor T3!" that I don't think saying the same things over and over again is getting me anywhere despite being repeatedly bombarded with the same "counterargument". It's a crime that an obsolete tank such as the 76 is the Soviet MBT, and it should have been replaced by 85 at the game's premise.

Soviets vs Wehrmacht IS imbalanced, some sense of balance is kicked into it by doctrinal, powerful Soviet call-ins that make a joke of the teching system. The end result is people whining about both call-in meta and stale, repetitive doctrines, who simultenously refuse any attempt to fix that situation by making a doctrinal unit that would be perfectly balanced when non doctrinal into a non doctrinal unit. It doesn't add up and it is counterintuitive. Panzer IV has the gimmicks in and around itself, and T-34/85 has the raw stats while costing more. THAT is asymmetrical balance. You want everything piled on Ostheer.

And I counter 85's often in the games I mentioned before where the heaviest thing I built was a halftrack. AT guns, mines and Panzerschrecks exist. Many other Ostheer-exclusive doctrinal AT options also. It makes perfect sense to give the slightly better stats to the Soviet tank. If you say otherwise, the bias becomes apparent. If you aren't an Axis warrior, at least make an attempt to explain why this setup would be imbalanced besides saying "T-34/85 beats Panzer IV in 1v1". Well duh, what do you think Panzer IV does to the 76 which comes with zero gimmicks and even worse support to justify its existence?

Let me flip the script on you.

Panther in t3. What does that do to the 34/76? You could use zis and to a lesser degree guards, but it makes building a t34 a waste of resources. Nothing wrong with the 85. It's just the timing thing. Buff the 76. I care not. But putting an 85 in t3 will lead to every ostheer player skipping t3. Put it in t4. That's fine... sort of. The regular mediums need a minute before the big mediums come out.

I think it's faction design. A few good units vs a mass of not quite so good units.