Ostheer: What is to be done?

MP drain, what are you talking about?

When we're not talking about call-in meta, Ost pays the most in terms of MP for its tech.

Ostheer: 200(BP1) + 120 (T2) + 200 (BP 2) + 160 (T3) + 200 (BP 3) + 160 (T4) = 1040 MP, not including the bunker or the initial T1 cost.

Soviets: 120 (t1) + 160 (T2) + 240 (T3) + 240 (T4) = 860 MP, not including the grenades of medical upgrade.

USF: 200 (LT) + 200 (Cap) + 240 (Major) = 640, not including any upgrades or ambulance.

OKW: 200 (Flak) + 200 (BHQ) + 200 (Mech) = 600, may be a little off.

Of course Ostheer has no upgrades as they are included in the BP upgrades, but those teching costs in terms of MP compared to the other factions.

Infantry-wise we're no more expensive than our Soviet counterparts, but we can bleed more if we lose too many early engagements as grens are 30 per member and even pioneers come in at whopping 25. Of course, we can cause the enemy to bleed, so it depends on the engagements.

Which ones do better for cost? They are all expensive as garden. The Tiger is so popular because you don't need to bust your balls teching in order to get it.

Ostheers tanks are moderately better because your not going to have a lot of them, nor a lot of infantry supporting them. And I just said Skirts should be an upgrade, not a vet ability.



I have never one used the word slippery slope. And Ostheer has a MP drain due to teching costs/high cost infantry. I'm not even defending or discussing any single unit, we are discussing faction design.

Although I find it very cute that you follow me around asserting Iv said things I never have.

Soviets have high MP drain as well assuming they build T2, not to mention their tech cost MP as well. I don't see how that was a problem before WFA but it's a problem now.

"Alexzandvar
The idea that you cannot cost effectively deal with Tigers as allies is a joke, not only does the IS2 out class it, so does the KV1."

Some of the things you have said.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/30786/pgrens-with-double-panzerschrecks-against-usf/page/6

Soviets have high MP drain as well assuming they build T2, not to mention their tech cost MP as well. I don't see how that was a problem before WFA but it's a problem now.

"Alexzandvar
The idea that you cannot cost effectively deal with Tigers as allies is a joke, not only does the IS2 out class it, so does the KV1."

Some of the things you have said.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/30786/pgrens-with-double-panzerschrecks-against-usf/page/6

It's a statement I apologized for, but you keep bringing it up as a "gotcha" when literally all I did was accidentally read the stats for the ToW KV1, which is right next to the MP KV1 on the coh2 stats website.

Soviets don't have a high MP drain in teching comparable to Ostheer unless you literally build your tiers linearly, as in make every single building in order from t1 to t2.

It's a statement I apologized for, but you keep bringing it up as a "gotcha" when literally all I did was accidentally read the stats for the ToW KV1, which is right next to the MP KV1 on the coh2 stats website.

Soviets don't have a high MP drain in teching comparable to Ostheer unless you literally build your tiers linearly, as in make every single building in order from t1 to t2.

No skilled Ostheer player builds all 4 tech buildings. In 1 v 1 or even in large games, a skilled player would either want a P4 + Doctrine support or Panther + Doctrine support. If 4 v 4 go on past 40 minutes mark and Ostheer/Sov sitting on fuel than both players would build T3/T4 in addition.

Which ones do better for cost? They are all expensive as garden. The Tiger is so popular because you don't need to bust your balls teching in order to get it.

Ostheers tanks are moderately better because your not going to have a lot of them, nor a lot of infantry supporting them. And I just said Skirts should be an upgrade, not a vet ability.



I have never one used the word slippery slope. And Ostheer has a MP drain due to teching costs/high cost infantry. I'm not even defending or discussing any single unit, we are discussing faction design.

Although I find it very cute that you follow me around asserting Iv said things I never have.

And there isn't a single Soviet tank you will have more of than the enemy will have its counterpart. 4 Panzer IV's vs 5 T-34/76s, that's the cost difference ratio, and guess which side wins effortlessly with the least bit of support?

When we're not talking about call-in meta, Ost pays the most in terms of MP for its tech.

Ostheer: 200(BP1) + 120 (T2) + 200 (BP 2) + 160 (T3) + 200 (BP 3) + 160 (T4) = 1040 MP, not including the bunker or the initial T1 cost.

Soviets: 120 (t1) + 160 (T2) + 240 (T3) + 240 (T4) = 860 MP, not including the grenades of medical upgrade.

USF: 200 (LT) + 200 (Cap) + 240 (Major) = 640, not including any upgrades or ambulance.

OKW: 200 (Flak) + 200 (BHQ) + 200 (Mech) = 600, may be a little off.

Of course Ostheer has no upgrades as they are included in the BP upgrades, but those teching costs in terms of MP compared to the other factions.

Infantry-wise we're no more expensive than our Soviet counterparts, but we can bleed more if we lose too many early engagements as grens are 30 per member and even pioneers come in at whopping 25. Of course, we can cause the enemy to bleed, so it depends on the engagements.

Well, include the grenades. The grenades that Ostheer/OKW get for free through regular progression.

No skilled Ostheer player builds all 4 tech buildings. In 1 v 1 or even in large games, a skilled player would either want a P4 + Doctrine support or Panther + Doctrine support. If 4 v 4 go on past 40 minutes mark and Ostheer/Sov sitting on fuel than both players would build T3/T4 in addition.

You never want P4 unless you facing all soviets no matter what, so that's t3 gone, and if you don't have call ins you NEED to get to t4 so you have something to compete against the allied medium spam that's incoming.

So are you honestly saying Ostheers over priced teching is good design because people skip it? Because I can't pin down what you are trying to say here.

If Ostheer only builds t1 and t2, they only already spent a little bit less than it takes for Soviets to go t1 or t2 to t3 or t4 (not fuel wise, MP wise).

Both Soviets and Ostheers teching are broken, but at least soviets don't have to put with insane teching costs just to get to their only viable late game units.

And there isn't a single Soviet tank you will have more of than the enemy will have its counterpart. 4 Panzer IV's vs 5 T-34/76s, that's the cost difference ratio, and guess which side wins effortlessly with the least bit of support?

The PIV isn't viable because of the Jackson and the fact it's in a tier were every other unit in it is useless. It has zero to do with the T34/76, which is fine unit that's only weakness is that it falls off in viability late game.

So nerf Jackson, which in turn is not viable against heavy tanks with its horrible vet 0 pen. Jackson this Jackson that. Panzer IV does more against non-doctrinal Soviet anything than Jackson does to it. I'm tired of hearing "but, but Jackson!" to justify how Panzer IV is a better unit than T-34/76 in every way.

And wow, 76 is fine in every way except it falters late game (you mean after the 2 minutes between Ostheer T2 and CP11) while Panzer IV isn't? If there was a time to say "biased Axis warrior", this would be it.

You never want P4 unless you facing all soviets no matter what, so that's t3 gone, and if you don't have call ins you NEED to get to t4 so you have something to compete against the allied medium spam that's incoming.


So are you honestly saying Ostheers over priced teching is good design because people skip it? Because I can't pin down what you are trying to say here.


If Ostheer only builds t1 and t2, they only already spent a little bit less than it takes for Soviets to go t1 or t2 to t3 or t4 (not fuel wise, MP wise).

Both Soviets and Ostheers teching are broken, but at least soviets don't have to put with insane teching costs just to get to their only viable late game units.




The PIV isn't viable because of the Jackson and the fact it's in a tier were every other unit in it is useless. It has zero to do with the T34/76, which is fine unit that's only weakness is that it falls off in viability late game.

This is about Soviet vs Ostheer so P4 is perfectly viable. You dont NEED to go T4 against Soviets as you have PGs, Tigers and Paks. Again, we had COH2 since 2013 and we know exactly what works with this match up.

Quote me on that if I did say it. Yes, Ostheer has to either pick T3 or T4 because selecting both is a suicide. And welcome to problem of playing Soviets "good tech design" where they have to skip certain Tiers.

No they don't but they have to select a "specific" commander to call in a tank to fight against "Non-doctrinal" Panthers and P4s.

So nerf Jackson, which in turn is not viable against heavy tanks. Jackson this Jackson that. Panzer IV does more against non-doctrinal Soviet anything than Jackson does to it. I'm tired of hearing "but, but Jackson!" to justify how Panzer IV is a better unit than T-34/76 in every way.

And wow, 76 is fine in every way except it falters late game (you mean after the 2 minutes between Ostheer T2 and CP11) while Panzer IV isn't? If there was a time to say "biased Axis warrior", this would be it.

The 76 costs less manpower and fuel to make, so in what world do you think it should preform equal at all huh?

The PIV is just a medium tank, seriously your making it out to be waaaay better than it actually is. It can be penned easily by the ZiS/SU-85. It also comes in a tier with units that will literally get you nothing against Soviets.

Nobody is saying it's bad, I'm saying it simply isn't worth the teching cost at this current time.

The Jackson just needs 160 damage like all he other TD's and a better ROF. It's not better or worse than the other medium TD's except for the fact it's far far more mobile.

This is about Soviet vs Ostheer so P4 is perfectly viable. You dont NEED to go T4 against Soviets as you have PGs, Tigers and Paks. Again, we had COH2 since 2013 and we know exactly what works with this match up.

Quote me on that if I did say it. Yes, Ostheer has to either pick T3 or T4 because selecting both is a suicide. And welcome to problem of playing Soviets "good tech design" where they have to skip certain Tiers.

No they don't but they have to select a "specific" commander to call in a tank to fight against "Non-doctrinal" Panthers and P4s.

Uh, yeah you do have Tigers, and if you are using a Tiger doctrine getting a PIV is a waste of time, fuel and manpower.

Soviets having to use call in's is how the faction works, it's stupid but bitching about it at this point is screaming for nothing. And you don't need doctrinal tanks to counter PIV.

EDIT: Or the Panther for that matter, have you ever heard of a thing called an "AT Gun"?

The 76 costs less manpower and fuel to make, so in what world do you think it should preform equal at all huh?

The PIV is just a medium tank, seriously your making it out to be waaaay better than it actually is. It can be penned easily by the ZiS/SU-85. It also comes in a tier with units that will literally get you nothing against Soviets.

Nobody is saying it's bad, I'm saying it simply isn't worth the teching cost at this current time.

The Jackson just needs 160 damage like all he other TD's and a better ROF. It's not better or worse than the other medium TD's except for the fact it's far far more mobile.

I think the 76 should be removed in the first place. But if it must stay: Are you kidding? Nobody here said that it should be just as good! It's just that it's absolutely horrible and not cheaper enough than Panzer IV to make up for it! Since it can't get cheaper, BUFF IT. MAKE IT NOT SUCK.

Use the tank for 5 games and you'll see how it has nothing on the Panzer IV which can stay around the entire game unless the enemy is going for doctrinal tanks, at which point you put out your own/put out a Panther and keep the perfectly viable panzer tacticianed (or not), Blitzing, armored skirted MG equipped Panzer IVs around and deal damage just fine.

Jackson is already bad and you want to kill it further. Unless it gets something like its penetrating shot ability at vet 0, it will remain useless against heavies. And just because it is USF's best option, doesn't mean it is cost effective when compared to other factions' options.

Uh, yeah you do have Tigers, and if you are using a Tiger doctrine getting a PIV is a waste of time, fuel and manpower.

Soviets having to use call in's is how the faction works, it's stupid but bitching about it at this point is screaming for nothing. And you don't need doctrinal tanks to counter PIV.

EDIT: Or the Panther for that matter, have you ever heard of a thing called an "AT Gun"?

You mad bro? No man, please educate us how AT gun + T-34 (Panther is hard counter to this) alone stops a panther supported by infantry and paks.

I think the 76 should be removed in the first place. But if it must stay: Are you kidding? Nobody here said that it should be just as good! It's just that it's absolutely horrible and not cheaper enough than Panzer IV to make up for it! Since it can't get cheaper, BUFF IT. MAKE IT NOT SUCK.

Use the tank for 5 games and you'll see how it has nothing on the Panzer IV which can stay around the entire game unless the enemy is going for doctrinal tanks, at which point you put out your own/put out a Panther and keep the perfectly viable panzer tacticianed (or not), Blitzing, armored skirted MG equipped Panzer IVs around and deal damage just fine.

Jackson is already bad and you want to kill it further. Unless it gets something like its penetrating shot ability at vet 0, it will remain useless against heavies. And just because it is USF's best option, doesn't mean it is cost effective when compared to other factions' options.

It's not horrible at all, it needs better late game power (better vet bonus's or optional armor upgrade) but is not in any universe a bad tank. It's one of the best tanks for killing enemy infantry in the game. Good crush, good squad wipe potential, fast. It is at a good cost point right now for what it does. Soviet techning still needs a rework.

And the Jackson is anything BUT bad, it's literally makes building anything smaller than a Panther nonviable thanks to it's great mobility, range, and damage. It's the best medium TD in the game bar none and it makes the Jadgpanzer and SU-85 look like sickley grannies the way it can run around the map punching enemy armor and moonwalking back out.

There are 2 non TD tanks in the game it does poorly against: The KT, and the Panther. That's it.

You mad bro? No man, please educate us how AT gun + T-34 (Panther is hard counter to this) alone stops a panther supported by infantry and paks.

Reverse your T-34 into the range of your AT guns, watch has he runs up over a mine/gets at naded chasing you and then is killed by your AT guns. If your charging your T34's into his PaK wall anyway your to hopeless to give advice to anyway.

His infantry won't get anywere near your PaK wall thank's to your maxims and infantry. If he tries to crawl up under suppression HE barrage his ass.

It's not horrible at all, it needs better late game power (better vet bonus's or optional armor upgrade) but is not in any universe a bad tank. It's one of the best tanks for killing enemy infantry in the game. Good crush, good squad wipe potential, fast. It is at a good cost point right now for what it does. Soviet techning still needs a rework.

And the Jackson is anything BUT bad, it's literally makes building anything smaller than a Panther nonviable thanks to it's great mobility, range, and damage. It's the best medium TD in the game bar none and it makes the Jadgpanzer and SU-85 look like sickley grannies the way it can run around the map punching enemy armor and moonwalking back out.

There are 2 non TD tanks in the game it does poorly against: The KT, and the Panther. That's it.



Reverse your T-34 into the range of your AT guns, watch has he runs up over a mine/gets at naded chasing you and then is killed by your AT guns. If your charging your T34's into his PaK wall anyway your to hopeless to give advice to anyway.

His infantry won't get anywere near your PaK wall thank's to your maxims and infantry. If he tries to crawl up under suppression HE barrage his ass.

T-34 is not good against infantry. It is worse at that role compared to just about everything of similar size. T-70 is also better at killing and wiping infantry. Crush? It doesn't go faster than anything or turn better. Panzer IV is a better crusher because it has blitz. You're grasping at straws here.

And Jackson is pretty bad against Tiger too. Tiger, Panther and KT. Guess which 3 Axis tanks are used the most and change games the most?

It's not horrible at all, it needs better late game power (better vet bonus's or optional armor upgrade) but is not in any universe a bad tank. It's one of the best tanks for killing enemy infantry in the game. Good crush, good squad wipe potential, fast. It is at a good cost point right now for what it does. Soviet techning still needs a rework.

And the Jackson is anything BUT bad, it's literally makes building anything smaller than a Panther nonviable thanks to it's great mobility, range, and damage. It's the best medium TD in the game bar none and it makes the Jadgpanzer and SU-85 look like sickley grannies the way it can run around the map punching enemy armor and moonwalking back out.

There are 2 non TD tanks in the game it does poorly against: The KT, and the Panther. That's it.



Reverse your T-34 into the range of your AT guns, watch has he runs up over a mine/gets at naded chasing you and then is killed by your AT guns. If your charging your T34's into his PaK wall anyway your to hopeless to give advice to anyway.

His infantry won't get anywere near your PaK wall thank's to your maxims and infantry. If he tries to crawl up under suppression HE barrage his ass.

Thanks, you are such a pro. Sums up all your post in this Form. Axis back foot scenarios therefore the Axis units are OK or UP.

T-34 is not good against infantry. It is worse at that role compared to just about everything of similar size. T-70 is also better at killing and wiping infantry. Crush? It doesn't go faster than anything or turn better. Panzer IV is a better crusher because it has blitz. You're grasping at straws here.

And Jackson is pretty bad against Tiger too. Tiger, Panther and KT. Guess which 3 Axis tanks are used the most and change games the most?

It's a better crusher than the PIV because it has higher speed, acceleration and basic turn speed. It's good at killing infantry because it has a good ROF, nice splash, and can take a hit or two before having to retreat. I'm not grasping at straws, it's a good generalist tank that just doesn't have late game viability.

The T-70 is better purely at non-crush anti INF because that is literally the T-70's entire purpose, it's not a generalist tank.

The Jackson is by no means crap against the Tiger, The Panther's higher armor allows it to deflect shots and speed allows it to get away, the KT just has better raw armor and health. The Tiger is slow, and even slower when mined/snared, just sight for your Jacksons and watch as the Ostheer player panics. Two hits from a Jackson will take off a good chunk of the Tigers health, not even counting if you have more than 1 Jackson or an AT gun to support.

The Panther and Tiger see a good amount of use, but the KT is by no matter a common tank. The fuel investment to get it is HUGE. Rushing one basically requires you making no tanks at all, which is a death sentence for OKW.

Thanks, you are such a pro. Sums up all your post in this Form. Axis back foot scenarios therefore the Axis units are OK or UP.

I didn't say the Panther was UP, I said it can be killed with a little thought and micro. The OKW Panther is fine were it is, and the Ostheer Panther either needs a cost reduction or T4 needs a cost reduction.

> Not getting tanks death sentence for OKW
> Vet 5 Shrekblobs
> Obers killing everything else

Remind me why people take you seriously again? Or do they?

> Not getting tanks death sentence for OKW
> Vet 5 Shrekblobs
> Obers killing everything else

Remind me why people take you seriously again? Or do they?

Nope.