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PGrens with double panzerschrecks against USF

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14 Feb 2015, 01:57 AM
#61
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Ah yes...Clown car snipers, SU-85/Snipers, MG42 from hell....where does time go?

We have been through a lot.
-Company of houses
-Holy grenade/mortar shell RNG-ing houses
-T70 crush rush
-FHT rush
-Pin strafe run and Opel Blitz dark era
-HTD
Basically: http://www.coh2.org/topic/4824/current-balance--in-pictures

Ontopic: cause i'm don't need to read anymore rather than this.

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Feb 2015, 18:23 PMluvnest
Oh please, Panzergrenadiers are probably one of the few units in this game that work as intended. You have a dedicated AI squad and you can upgrade it with 120 munitions to make it a dedicated AT squad, sacrificing pretty much all AI capabilites. Actually more units should be like that, instead of Allrounders.
14 Feb 2015, 06:04 AM
#62
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705



Oh yes they are ^^ I had two Pgrens raping even Guards today and after that they were a great support for my Tiger dealing with 85s


'Even guards' -lolz.U say that is if beating guards is difficult these days.Likei said before,unless u have muni conversion doc -340 mp,42 reinforce plus 120 muni that can be one shotted frequently - not worth it.Too much risk,not much reward,giving away free shrecks on top of it.
14 Feb 2015, 06:39 AM
#63
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225



Oh yes they are ^^ I had two Pgrens raping even Guards today and after that they were a great support for my Tiger dealing with 85s

No offence man, but thats just largely bollocks. I see you dont have much experience. Yes, PGrens will usually defeat Guards at medium/short range, but that says exactly fuck all, as Guards are not in the best spot either, and in fact have a bit of a similar problem. Anyways, a well microed Conscript squad can and will actually win engagements against vanilla PGs - although RNG plays a major role here - and Rifles will do so pretty consistently. Allied elite infantry, be it Shocks or Paras, will defeat PGrens effortlessly.
Schrecked up, PGrens represent a major investment, and yet are incredibly fragile. Shermans frequently oneshot them, and every Medium tank can squish/push them and render them all but useless unless thy are supported by a Pak or an additional Gren squad.
What PGrens are good at is keeping Cons or Rifles from aggressively flanking your support weapons on urban maps, but thats pretty much it. I tend to build them for this niche application, but they are just not useful as either mainline infantry or dedicated AT.
14 Feb 2015, 07:22 AM
#64
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521



Non-doctrine USF units can counter and out preform pretty much anything Ostheer can make except the Panther.

Say what? Rifles get mulched by LMG42 Grenadiers with a halftrack backing them. Get an AT gun to make AA halftrack useless. In 2v2 this is absolutely not true in any way, shape, or form. So what if Jackson can kill PzIV? It's still an overly specialized and overpriced "tank destroyer" with not enough penetration to actually do its job. It's such a sad unit. Also most USF commanders blow.



Obviously yes Shreks can kill Jacksons, but I would never get shreks to counter one. That's the domain of the Panther/AT guns.



Exactly, T3 isn't bad but it isn't great, it's just pretty much out classed by everything that USF and Soviets can build resulting in it's obsolescence.

Soviet T3-T4 (yes, both) are both in a far worse place and are completely terrible. They need fixing first.



Ostheer are just as commander reliant these days as Soviets really, mostly because of needing Tigers in order to deal with the insane amount of allied mediums and infantry. The Elefant still also has a good place as it comes in good commanders, but the Pak43 comes in some pretty crap commanders.

You don't need Tigers, you have many AT options and good commanders. You just don't want to bother and can't leave your crutch. Honestly, do you even try different things as Ostheer? I do all the time and I am having a blast with how fun it is compared to my time with Soviets.

Call in meta will always be the case as long as it's cheaper and better than teching in every way, this extremely obvious with Ostheer.

You've got that right, Ostheer *can* do it as a slightly better option while Soviets are wholly dependant on their doctrines. Though Pak43 comes in good commanders too. Festung Armor for example is great, a hulled down Panther is a menace. Remember that it Pak43 only needs to kill 1 tank to be worth it and it will usually kill more depending on how you placed it and whether the enemy has artillery or not,so it's a flagship ability of its own and shouldn't really be in with many powerful abilities in the first place.
14 Feb 2015, 08:15 AM
#65
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

They are UP if you ask me. Why would I even call in an expensive squad, pay a lot of precious muni and then see it wiped with one HE shot?
14 Feb 2015, 08:23 AM
#66
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2015, 08:15 AMRMMLz
They are UP if you ask me. Why would I even call in an expensive squad, pay a lot of precious muni and then see it wiped with one HE shot?


Because a unit being countered by the very thing it's intended to counter is good game design apparently.
14 Feb 2015, 08:49 AM
#67
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

Panzergrenadiers are absolutely fine AT. There is no remotely as effective Allied counterpart. They aren't supposed to go up against undistracted anti-infantry vehicles, but they stand a fair chance. OKW has spoiled you guys, clearly you want the same omniponent blobs of doom for Ostheer as well. Buff Panzergrenadiers somehow to be more effective against infantry, that's all they need. Maybe buff Stormtroopers in the same time too, as that doctrine doesn't have any call-ins besides Storms which are apparently supposed to be its backbone.
14 Feb 2015, 09:03 AM
#68
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

I wouldn't call a squad that dies to a single sherman HE shell fine. Especially when I need to pay 320 manpower and 120 munitions for the privilege of being 1 shotted by a medium tank.
14 Feb 2015, 09:51 AM
#69
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

I wouldn't call a squad that dies to a single sherman HE shell fine. Especially when I need to pay 320 manpower and 120 munitions for the privilege of being 1 shotted by a medium tank.


That never happens to me, it's a case of bad luck. It's also not meant to go headfirst against anti-infantry vehicles. When they are mined, distracted, or stunned, send in the PzGrens and kill them off. Better if you have ambush camo. Also you seem to have missed or ignored my earlier response.



14 Feb 2015, 10:27 AM
#70
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

Panzergrenadiers are absolutely fine AT. There is no remotely as effective Allied counterpart. They aren't supposed to go up against undistracted anti-infantry vehicles, but they stand a fair chance. OKW has spoiled you guys, clearly you want the same omniponent blobs of doom for Ostheer as well. Buff Panzergrenadiers somehow to be more effective against infantry, that's all they need. Maybe buff Stormtroopers in the same time too, as that doctrine doesn't have any call-ins besides Storms which are apparently supposed to be its backbone.


No, we don't want that. OKW has nothing to do with this, please do not blame OKW for every goddamn problem.

Are Shermans dedicated AI units? No they are not. They are versatile AI/AT units. Pzgrens shouldn't counter a unit like AAHT, but they should be able to counter Shermans. The main problem is high risk of One-shot squad wipe. One HE shot and BAM, they're dead. Fix this and they perform fine against vehicle. keep in mind that they are terrible vs infantry.
14 Feb 2015, 11:40 AM
#71
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3


No offence man, but thats just largely bollocks. I see you dont have much experience. Yes, PGrens will usually defeat Guards at medium/short range, but that says exactly fuck all, as Guards are not in the best spot either, and in fact have a bit of a similar problem. Anyways, a well microed Conscript squad can and will actually win engagements against vanilla PGs - although RNG plays a major role here - and Rifles will do so pretty consistently. Allied elite infantry, be it Shocks or Paras, will defeat PGrens effortlessly.
Schrecked up, PGrens represent a major investment, and yet are incredibly fragile. Shermans frequently oneshot them, and every Medium tank can squish/push them and render them all but useless unless thy are supported by a Pak or an additional Gren squad.
What PGrens are good at is keeping Cons or Rifles from aggressively flanking your support weapons on urban maps, but thats pretty much it. I tend to build them for this niche application, but they are just not useful as either mainline infantry or dedicated AT.


Guards with DP-28 aren't that bad at these ranges either... Might have been RNG

Cons are notihing against PGs on close Range when they don't have PPsHs equipped

Rifles are the best mainline inf in the game PGrens suck against them I agree.

In my eyes their main purpose is supporting Tanks with their hand-held AT because they seem to perform best in this role
14 Feb 2015, 12:22 PM
#72
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

the Pak43 comes in some pretty crap commanders.


Festung Armor would like to have a word with you.

Pak43 comes in three Wehrmacht doctrines:

-Festung Armor
-Defensive
-Joint Operations

Festung armor is a excellent doctrine, And is very good when you just wanna camp something.

Defensive is kinda meh, And Joint Ops is held back by how bad the LeFH.18 sucks.

Then you have Fortifications doctrine for OKW, One of the best camp doctrines in the game.

So it comes in two good doctrines and two 'bad' ones.
14 Feb 2015, 15:25 PM
#73
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Panzergrenadiers are absolutely fine AT. There is no remotely as effective Allied counterpart. They aren't supposed to go up against undistracted anti-infantry vehicles, but they stand a fair chance. OKW has spoiled you guys, clearly you want the same omniponent blobs of doom for Ostheer as well. Buff Panzergrenadiers somehow to be more effective against infantry, that's all they need. Maybe buff Stormtroopers in the same time too, as that doctrine doesn't have any call-ins besides Storms which are apparently supposed to be its backbone.


Nope all i want is my 340 mp 120 munition investment not to be one shotted regularly.Its too much cost for the potential reward,sorry.Moving on.
14 Feb 2015, 16:10 PM
#74
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484



Nope all i want is my 340 mp 120 munition investment not to be one shotted regularly.Its too much cost for the potential reward,sorry.Moving on.


Dude PGs don't always get one shoted, it is all dependent on RNG. PGs have the same chance of being one shotted as Obers, Assault Engineers, RE.
14 Feb 2015, 16:51 PM
#75
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Dude PGs don't always get one shoted, it is all dependent on RNG. PGs have the same chance of being one shotted as Obers, Assault Engineers, RE.


But unless you gave those Obers StG 44's your not losing 120 munitions in a munition starved faction.
14 Feb 2015, 16:55 PM
#76
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144



But unless you gave those Obers StG 44's your not losing 120 munitions in a munition starved faction.


When you take everything into account, the OKW is not that ammo starved. USF is.
14 Feb 2015, 17:01 PM
#77
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484



But unless you gave those Obers StG 44's your not losing 120 munitions in a munition starved faction.


My LMG equipped Paras get one shotted by KT in munition starved commander.
14 Feb 2015, 17:06 PM
#78
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Jesus people, you need to get out and play more. Have any of you seen Festung Armor in a competitive game at even a semi-decent level used successfully? Me neither.
OKW Pak 43 is more viable for two simple reasons: A, you can build it next to the Schwere Panzer Headquarters, and B, OKW fortified, unlike Festung Armor, will not preclude you from getting heavy armour of your own. I've played quite a bit of OH 1s recently (sometimes I feel masochistic) and the IS-2 is a major problem. Just about the only thing that effectively neutralises it is the Ele. However, an Ele is not gonna do much ie. on Semois/La Gleize/Stalingrad etc. Tigers with Paks/Tellers are the next best thing and can contain it, but they are by no means reliable, the IS-2 with its ridonculous frontal armour is just more survivable and a good deal more effective in terms of anti-vehicle capability.
14 Feb 2015, 17:10 PM
#79
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



When you take everything into account, the OKW is not that ammo starved. USF is.


OKW isn't late game ammo starved, but that hardly matters when the entire rest of the game your disparately hoping you get more shreks out. And I was talking about Ostheer by the way.


My LMG equipped Paras get one shotted by KT in munition starved commander.


Don't send LMG Para's to be attack KT's? The issue with Pgrens is that they are meant to be good mobile anti-tank, but the suck ass against tanks, that aren't tank destroyers.
14 Feb 2015, 17:11 PM
#80
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Shit double post
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