okwunits

I never said they didn't require a lot of micro, they do. But if you think managing a fuckload of infantry squads is easy for any faction your delusional. Good micro is needed at high skill levels no matter what faction you are playing, it's the key to success in any RTS.

There isn't some magic increased response time for OKW or Ostheer squads over Soviet and USF squads. If you are lazy and blob no matter what faction you are playing your going to get raped, hard.



Allies versus Axis in randoms perfectly demonstrates the concept of the skill ceiling versus the skill floor. It's easier to play OKW (not ostheer), if you are of medium to low skill and still do okay, but not as easy to play as either of the allied factions. Now at equal high skill levels we can see that pretty much every faction is equal in performance except Ostheer.

And randoms are fucking nightmare in any RTS, which is the reason why I don't play with randoms. Gaben gave us the friends list for a reason my friend!



Micro, cheese and meta is the staple of every single faction in the game period. I don't cheese any more as Soviets than I do as OKW. It's actually kind of more fun to play as soviets since I have a lot more toys in my toy box than I do when I play OKW. It's actually quite fun to abuse the hell out of the B4 and watch your enemies Panthers and Tigers cry as their shots bounce of the armor of my KV1's.

Even Relic stated than Allies need more micro than Axis, especially for the Armor part.

It is easier to micro long range unit, where you can simply focus fire, than "melee" units.

So I am waiting for your source for your statement.

Even Relic stated than Allies need more micro than Axis, especially for the Armor part.

It is easier to micro long range unit, where you can simply focus fire, than "melee" units.

So I am waiting for your source for your statement.

Statement about what? The reason it takes more micro on average for allied tanks is there tends to be a lot more allied tanks on the field than axis ones lol.

The more you have of something the harder it is to micro efficiently. A moving against a good enemy with volks is no more a smart idea than doing it with T34's or Shermans.

I never said they didn't require a lot of micro, they do. But if you think managing a fuckload of infantry squads is easy for any faction your delusional. Good micro is needed at high skill levels no matter what faction you are playing, it's the key to success in any RTS.

There isn't some magic increased response time for OKW or Ostheer squads over Soviet and USF squads. If you are lazy and blob no matter what faction you are playing your going to get raped, hard.



Allies versus Axis in randoms perfectly demonstrates the concept of the skill ceiling versus the skill floor. It's easier to play OKW (not ostheer), if you are of medium to low skill and still do okay, but not as easy to play as either of the allied factions. Now at equal high skill levels we can see that pretty much every faction is equal in performance except Ostheer.

And randoms are fucking nightmare in any RTS, which is the reason why I don't play with randoms. Gaben gave us the friends list for a reason my friend!



Micro, cheese and meta is the staple of every single faction in the game period. I don't cheese any more as Soviets than I do as OKW. It's actually kind of more fun to play as soviets since I have a lot more toys in my toy box than I do when I play OKW. It's actually quite fun to abuse the hell out of the B4 and watch your enemies Panthers and Tigers cry as their shots bounce of the armor of my KV1's.

Is not just infantry that requires more micro for the Allies, but the medium armor (USF specifically) as well. I am sure when you play OKW you just A-move your King Tiger and spam U when you are less than half health.

At least you acknowledge for any new- medium level player will have a hard time playing Allies than Axis, tells us something about the balance doesn't it?

Statement about what? The reason it takes more micro on average for allied tanks is there tends to be a lot more allied tanks on the field than axis ones lol.

The more you have of something the harder it is to micro efficiently. A moving against a good enemy with volks is no more a smart idea than doing it with T34's or Shermans.

Even with a single Sherman, the tank demands more micro for smoke, ambushes, crushes while I can just park my KT on a VP and snipe infantry all day.

What the fuck is the point of comparing a King Tiger to a sherman? I would probably make more medium tanks as OKW If there was any to be built, but as long as I'm stuck with nothing I'm going to go with what wins, a KT!

Even with a Panzer IV, the tank demands more micro for smoke, ambushes, and crushes while I can just park my IS2 on a VP and snipe infantry all day. You see how dumb this comparison is? In what universe does do 5 rifle squads take any more or less micro than 5 volks squads?

Gee I wonder why OKW doesn't spam lots of medium tanks, because lots of medium tanks are hard to micro! No wait, it's because OKW mediums don't exist and you have a huge fuel penalty.

What the fuck is the point of comparing a King Tiger to a sherman? I would probably make more medium tanks as OKW If there was any to be built, but as long as I'm stuck with nothing I'm going to go with what wins, a KT!

Even with a Panzer IV, the tank demands more micro for smoke, ambushes, and crushes while I can just park my IS2 on a VP and snipe infantry all day. You see how dumb this comparison is? In what universe does do 5 rifle squads take any more or less micro than 5 volks squads?

Gee I wonder why OKW doesn't spam lots of medium tanks, because lots of medium tanks are hard to micro! No wait, it's because OKW mediums don't exist and you have a huge fuel penalty.

The whole point of that comparison is the amount of micro non doctrinal tanks (even call in) take when you compare OKW vs USF, so my comment remains USF requires more micro than OKW.

No you cant park your IS2 on the VP like you can with KT, the KT has more armor, range and damage (even Jacksons cant penetrate sometimes) compared to the ONLY heavy Allied tank. Not to mention, Shreks blobs will do more damage to IS2 than Zooks ever will to a KT.

The whole point of that comparison is the amount of micro non doctrinal tanks (even call in) take when you compare OKW vs USF, so my comment remains USF requires more micro than OKW.

No you cant park your IS2 on the VP like you can with KT, the KT has more armor, range and damage (even Jacksons cant penetrate sometimes) compared to the ONLY heavy Allied tank. Not to mention, Shreks blobs will do more damage to IS2 than Zooks ever will to a KT.

The KT has more damage, range, and armor because it costs a whopping 650 fuel (adjusted for reduced income).

The reason tanks for USF take more micro is you actually have tanks! The entire point of OKW is you need to desperately stall to get any thing more than light tanks out because you have a large fuel penalty. The reason OKW has things like early access to shreks is because they very first Tank Destroyer you can get out is 265 fuel in the Jadgpanzer! (again adjusted for reduced income)

The KT has more damage, range, and armor because it costs a whopping 650 fuel (adjusted for reduced income).

The reason tanks for USF take more micro is you actually have tanks! The entire point of OKW is you need to desperately stall to get any thing more than light tanks out because you have a large fuel penalty. The reason OKW has things like early access to shreks is because they very first Tank Destroyer you can get out is 265 fuel in the Jadgpanzer! (again adjusted for reduced income)

There is no need to &djust the fuel price. The price is 260 if I recall correctly

There is no need to &djust the fuel price. The price is 260 if I recall correctly

The fuel price is adjusted because OKW get reduced fuel income, for every 1 fuel every other faction gets you get .33 fuel.

The fuel price is adjusted because OKW get reduced fuel income, for every 1 fuel every other faction gets you get .33 fuel.

Nope, since that would mean that the OKW panther is far better than the Ostheer one.

The fuel penalty is here to delay teching, not to represent the Power of OKW units.

The fuel price is adjusted because OKW get reduced fuel income, for every 1 fuel every other faction gets you get .33 fuel.

So adjust also teching cost - since teching is a way cheaper than any other factions, I guess you should remove 66% of tech costs.

Point is, stop talking about income. You have great converter and in fact you even won't notice any differences in incomes.

The reduced income doesn't mean the tanks have to be better but it does mean you can't spam them or replace them quickly.

The reduced income doesn't mean the tanks have to be better but it does mean you can't spam them or replace them quickly.

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Therefore, you do not need to adjust the price .

The KT has more damage, range, and armor because it costs a whopping 650 fuel (adjusted for reduced income).

The reason tanks for USF take more micro is you actually have tanks! The entire point of OKW is you need to desperately stall to get any thing more than light tanks out because you have a large fuel penalty. The reason OKW has things like early access to shreks is because they very first Tank Destroyer you can get out is 265 fuel in the Jadgpanzer! (again adjusted for reduced income)

265 for a JPIV? You get one HQ for free so you pay exactly 135 fuel (203 fuel for other factions).

What does a SU-85 cost? 120 (teching) + 120 fuel = 240 fuel for a TD with less armor and worse vet bonuses.

OKW fuel penalty means almost nothing if teching is cheap.

A Panther, for example, costs 400MP + 120 fuel (T1 or T2 + T3) + 490 MP + 263 fuel = 890 MP and 383 fuel (for other factions).

A Panther for Wehrmacht costs way more MP (only BPs are already 600MP) 160 fuel for BPs, 175 for the Panther, 15 fuel to build T2 = 350 fuel (375 fuel if you also build T3 but who does that?).

The KT does not have more range BTW. It has exactly 40 range like every other heavy tank.

How does one faction that's based around spamming 1 or 2 units require any more micro than one that's also based around spamming 1 or 2 units.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Im not a top 100 4v4 player by any means

But in 2v2 as allies ive managed to get to top 200 in AT many times.

I can tell you are that level of play the OKW players become soo good that its nearly impossible to win once its past 10 minutes and they have a Med truck set up.

I can only imagine how impossible it is in 3v3+

I have played with top AT teams as OKW in a 4v4 a couple of time. And the allies consistently have no chance.

Even with cheese at that level of play. You become aware of how to counter an predict.

Plz enlighten me on how you can stop 2 KT's at 16-19 minutes. The answer is You cant..

265 for a JPIV? You get one HQ for free so you pay exactly 135 fuel (203 fuel for other factions).

What does a SU-85 cost? 120 (teching) + 120 fuel = 240 fuel for a TD with less armor and worse vet bonuses.

OKW fuel penalty means almost nothing if teching is cheap.

A Panther, for example, costs 400MP + 120 fuel (T1 or T2 + T3) + 490 MP + 263 fuel = 890 MP and 383 fuel (for other factions).

A Panther for Wehrmacht costs way more MP (only BPs are already 600MP) 160 fuel for BPs, 175 for the Panther, 15 fuel to build T2 = 350 fuel (375 fuel if you also build T3 but who does that?).

The KT does not have more range BTW. It has exactly 40 range like every other heavy tank.

The fuel penalty is important because it reduces the amount of tanks you can build and how fast you can replace them. The point is not that your tanks are just supposed to be "better" it's just that your supposed to focus on unit preservation and "making do with what you have".

The reason I adjust the prices of units for OKW that cost fuel is I'm trying to get across that things like the Jadgpanzer and Panther are expensive investments, you can't spam either simply because you don't have the income to do so. If you want OKW to make more sense as a faction in relation to the others as far as thing likes micro go your going to actually need to give them something to micro.

And yes OKW teching is cheap, but that means jack shit if you don't have the fuel income to get your tanks out the door and defend your HQ's. The reason you see so many people spamming volks is that because volks with shreks are your only reliable AT at the beginning of the game, if OKW had more options than people woundn't be forced to do the same thing every time.

You can't complain about OKW not needing as much micro when to stay competitive a OKW player is required to micro a large amount of infantry in order to stall for actual AT, and if you want OKW to require more micro for their tanks how about giving them more than 1 tank to actually micro?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Im not a top 100 4v4 player by any means

But in 2v2 as allies ive managed to get to top 200 in AT many times.

I can tell you are that level of play the OKW players become soo good that its nearly impossible to win once its past 10 minutes and they have a Med truck set up.

I can only imagine how impossible it is in 3v3+

I have played with top AT teams as OKW in a 4v4 a couple of time. And the allies consistently have no chance.

Even with cheese at that level of play. You become aware of how to counter an predict.

Plz enlighten me on how you can stop 2 KT's at 16-19 minutes. The answer is You cant..

A single B4 shot with For Mother Russia will instantly kill a KT.

i would also argue that the fuel conversion is irrelevant. Yes okw has 2/3 fuel income (not .33). That doesn't mean anything except when it comes to ability to replace losses. fuel costs are largely there for timing, and okw tanks timings are the same or faster than anybody else's. Every faction has to tech up, so tech costs are also irrelevant. When comparing unit a to unit b you do it strictly on the cost of the unit regardless of teching and okw reduced income.

okw units are by and large superior to their counterparts from every other faction which is supposedly to make up for this reduced income. and they do have a medium tank. its called the panzerkampfwagon V aka panther. They also have p4s in a shitty doctrine and they come too late, but still, they have mediums tanks.

now the perfect example of superior to other faction units is the panther. it arrives earlier than the wehrmacht panther. it is superior in several stats, speed by a huge amount.

The argument about spamming 1-2 types of units is kinda irrelevant, but so is everyone else's. WTF is usf supposed to do other than rifles? same as okw, same as wehrmacht. Are they supposed to skip grens entirely? There are a few doctrines with other infantry options, but ostruppen and assault grens do not an army make. The reason axis is easier to micro comes down to the late game. USF has 2 jacksons, a sherman, and a scott (at least that's my ideal, usually 4 armored units for everybody) Axis has a p4/panther and a heavy. Four units are harder to micromanage than two units. That is what it boils down to. Relic even said as much. Infantry is infantry, although it is a bit easier with team weapons as you don't move those quite as much as your line infantry. USF suffers from shitty machine gun-itis, and no mortar, so they have even more infantry to micro because of it. When i play wehr i usually have 3 grens and 1-2 pgrens. When I play USF I always have 4 rifles(except airborne then swap in paras) and an RET and an officer(capt/lt) It's one more squad. I didn't cont pios but maybe could have, but RET aren't repair units since vehicles can do it themselves, and i kit my REs out with zook's, so they are active fighting units, not repair/mine/auxilliary units. I will say I think long range infantry is easier to micro than med-short, so axis is favored there too.

in any case, the way okw is designed is the problem. They are supposed to overcome their lack of resources/not having as many units by having great units, except their unit count is the same as everybody else's. They get free AA, They get free repairs/healing. Every unit they have is freaking great at their role except raketenwerfer & volks for early game, but late they shine. They are supposed to be resource starved, but they just aren't. The are reduced, but not enough to really cripple them. If they had more muni sinks, it would help show that aspect of design. OKW is low on fuel, but they were designed to run that way, so it doesn't make a ton of difference. It's a bit of a hollow argument when okw only guys cry about reduced income. They are designed with that in mind, it's not like if any of the other 3 had reduced income. OKW is just an odd design, which, as i've been told, was thoroughly changed in alpha, so it's not quite what was conceived and has odd implementation.

I think if okw was supposed to be resource starved then reduced manpower should have been implemented as well. even if that meant better units, there actually would be fewer of them.

.33 was a mistype but iv said before OKW should have cheaper tanks fuel wise but they cost much more manpower

There is no need to &djust the fuel price. The price is 260 if I recall correctly

Free First Building no earning of fuel required

+

80 actual earned fuel for the PanzerHQ

+

40 for the second building

+

260 fuel for the unit

Total

380 fuel. Thats the cost of the KT to OKWs economy. Of course the small fuel penalty does apply. Map dependant on how much that is actually an impact since starting sector is not counted. More on large maps less on small maps. And if you converted for fuel or not and salvaged.