2vs2 Help required

My friend and I have been playing some 2 vs 2, at first it was great, we followed our build orders and cap orders, we totally dominated. On our fifth game in, it was as if we were playing a completely different game where each, and every, German player absolutely dominated the field. Worse part was: we changed nothing.

Now I play Soviets and my friend plays US. We have a good synergy, usually choosing commanders based on opposition and what works best with each other. What is frustrating though, is that we don't lose through good tactic's, we've noticed that each German does the same thing: Stall and Tech. However the amount of AT they can produce is outstandingly painful, so armour isn't any good. They blob up, making it difficult to counter.

Questions are as follows:
1) What are we doing wrong?
2) Guards or Shock?
3) Are Germans obviously unbalanced, especially OKW?
4) Is Matchmaking totally ballsed up?

Before the rage hate replies arrive; what I have NOT said is "GERMANS OP!!1k&&3", Ostheer are perfectly balanced, we've found games against two Ostheer to be the closest, down to skill games. Its just the OKW "Five+ ranks of Veterancy, on the run AT support by dirt cheep armour that has so many skills you need two keyboards". However I will accommodate honest, constructive replies regarding OKW, just please don't butt-hurt here. I understand that most of you Play to Win, which is the reason why certain people will butt-hurt about the OKW comments, but; Grow up. Its an honest evaluation.

I went against two immensely ranked players the other day. One had three ranks of Prestige (Siberian) and the other was a similar rank. Pinned by the Kubels, with no decent early counter, I was brutalised by a Flak truck very early game, and it was over. Matchmaking also appears to be out of sync, or everyone who plays OKW just plays to win and, thus, has a higher rank.

Anyhow the point is; what is the point? If everyone plays Germans, and the majority of them play OKW, why bother? Should I just join them and be "Pro" through unbalance? Or can you help me defeat the OKW "Pro-notreallyimanoob" OKW players?

Many thanks indeed

Obviously i don't know how skilled you are in micro BUT good macro in 2v2 can counteract a proportion of it.
answers
1) sounds like you have a hard time vs OKW. you have to learn to play vs their bullshit. for blobs my recommendation is katyusha. In order to get maximum damage/wipes get to the minimum range, obviously this is risky but the devastation it can cause is incredible. be especially wary of shrek blobs, make sure you have units infront of katyusha. you could also try baiting into demo charge. for USA 2 scotts are probs best for blobs, chip away nicely at them (neat trick if they dont have vet 1 smoke is to use normal smoke barrage nearby when they encounter trouble). AND if you see a t4 panzershwer, look to destroy it as soon as possible via (AT gun [use attack ground if cant scout it], short range katyusha, 120mm, tanks])
2)guards or shock. depends. you also want to be thinking what comes with these doctrines, you'll want to balance out with the usa player since they dont get any heavies. if you are getting fingered up the arse by light vehicles, best to just go with guards, shocks can also be very devastating but would only get one squad since expensive. but overall i would choose doctrine aiming for long term plan. I tend to choose doctrine based on the ostheer player as okw ones arent as threatening imo (pak 43 i suppose and no one uses jagdtiger anymore anyway).Main things to look to counter in ost doc are stuka bomber and tiger/elite. if they have stuka avoid b4, if they have tiger jacksons do nicely.
3) Don't really like phrase unbalanced, you just have to learn whatever the current metagame is and be prepared to counter it. OKW can be very strong, but blobs and forward hq are easy to punish as you know where they all are.
4) you said u started winning, then started losing. that is probably because you elo+ went up/ after 10 games you get ranked. then you get better opponents

Dont forget demo-charges and mines

Obviously i don't know how skilled you are in micro BUT good macro in 2v2 can counteract a proportion of it.
answers
1) sounds like you have a hard time vs OKW. you have to learn to play vs their bullshit. for blobs my recommendation is katyusha. In order to get maximum damage/wipes get to the minimum range, obviously this is risky but the devastation it can cause is incredible. be especially wary of shrek blobs, make sure you have units infront of katyusha. you could also try baiting into demo charge. for USA 2 scotts are probs best for blobs, chip away nicely at them (neat trick if they dont have vet 1 smoke is to use normal smoke barrage nearby when they encounter trouble). AND if you see a t4 panzershwer, look to destroy it as soon as possible via (AT gun [use attack ground if cant scout it], short range katyusha, 120mm, tanks])
2)guards or shock. depends. you also want to be thinking what comes with these doctrines, you'll want to balance out with the usa player since they dont get any heavies. if you are getting fingered up the arse by light vehicles, best to just go with guards, shocks can also be very devastating but would only get one squad since expensive. but overall i would choose doctrine aiming for long term plan. I tend to choose doctrine based on the ostheer player as okw ones arent as threatening imo (pak 43 i suppose and no one uses jagdtiger anymore anyway).Main things to look to counter in ost doc are stuka bomber and tiger/elite. if they have stuka avoid b4, if they have tiger jacksons do nicely.
3) Don't really like phrase unbalanced, you just have to learn whatever the current metagame is and be prepared to counter it. OKW can be very strong, but blobs and forward hq are easy to punish as you know where they all are.
4) you said u started winning, then started losing. that is probably because you elo+ went up/ after 10 games you get ranked. then you get better opponents

My friend and I have been playing some 2 vs 2, at first it was great, we followed our build orders and cap orders, we totally dominated. On our fifth game in, it was as if we were playing a completely different game where each, and every, German player absolutely dominated the field.

4) Matchmaking isn't a wondrous tool that matches you magically with equally skilled players. If there were tens of thousands players in the game, maybe you'd get even matches a lot more often, but with such a small playerbase, don't expect the system to work perfectly (or at all). Also, when you play with an arranged team, the first 10 matches (I think) are used to measure your skill level and set your starting rating, so it's only natural to meet players of varying skill on your first games.

Worse part was: we changed nothing.

That's the worst part indeed. It's a player vs player game. You can't expect to do the same thing and win every time. Opponents will react and counter what you do. It's up to you to do the same and be unpredictable.

Now I play Soviets and my friend plays US. We have a good synergy, usually choosing commanders based on opposition and what works best with each other. What is frustrating though, is that we don't lose through good tactic's, we've noticed that each German does the same thing: Stall and Tech. However the amount of AT they can produce is outstandingly painful, so armour isn't any good. They blob up, making it difficult to counter.

1) If you "win" but you don't actually win, then you're doing something wrong. The scenario you describe is very common: You win engagements, secure your ground, then chip away at the opponent expecting to win. It's not enough,and unless you have your opponent triple-capped and on retreat, you need to keep pushing:
-Have you won your side and have most of the points? Help your teammate. Switch sides and flank your mate's enemy.
-Floating resources? Build caches or tech up.
-Ask your self "what can f*ck my/our army up?" and build a counter to that, even if your opponent doesn't have it yet. He probably will, because he will ask the same question to himself.

The general idea is to capitalize on your advantage.

I went against two immensely ranked players the other day. One had three ranks of Prestige (Siberian) and the other was a similar rank. Pinned by the Kubels, with no decent early counter, I was brutalised by a Flak truck very early game, and it was over. Matchmaking also appears to be out of sync, or everyone who plays OKW just plays to win and, thus, has a higher rank.

First of all, you can't expect to do well against the top 5, let alone win, and secondly, prestige and level have nothing to do with actual skill.

Also, the kubel has many many counters. You just lack experience. I'm sure there are many guides in this forum that will help you with that.

2) Guards or Shock?

Both. You have 3 commander slots. If you're asking which one is better, you already know the answer: depends on your build order, strategy, opponent, map, teammate etc.

3) Are Germans obviously unbalanced, especially OKW?

Before the rage hate replies arrive; what I have NOT said is "GERMANS OP!!1k&&3", Ostheer are perfectly balanced, we've found games against two Ostheer to be the closest, down to skill games. Its just the OKW "Five+ ranks of Veterancy, on the run AT support by dirt cheep armour that has so many skills you need two keyboards". However I will accommodate honest, constructive replies regarding OKW, just please don't butt-hurt here. I understand that most of you Play to Win, which is the reason why certain people will butt-hurt about the OKW comments, but; Grow up. Its an honest evaluation.

You're obviously butt-hurt, so it's an honest, but emotional evaluation
Obviously OP I'd say no, but really easy and newb friendly, yes.
The only thing you can do is learn to react to the blobs, and have an early AT response ready. Hold your ground until you get a katyusha, and it's downhill from there. If you're still not winning get a second one. If the blob swarms you it means you didn't spot it early enough to react. Use mines and mortars, since your mate is USF and lacks those.

Once you clear these skill/rating levels you'll see blobs less and less frequently. Blobbing is bad and is a sign of a bad player.

Anyhow the point is; what is the point? If everyone plays Germans, and the majority of them play OKW, why bother? Should I just join them and be "Pro" through unbalance? Or can you help me defeat the OKW "Pro-notreallyimanoob" OKW players?

Many thanks indeed

Yes. Join them and see for your self how "easy" or not they are. You'll be surprised.

A friend and I are in exactly the same boat and I really don't understand the counter. I've come on here looking for help to counter German heavy tanks and infantry blobs but the suggestions that I keep hearing are:

Mines and charges against tanks
Katyusha against blobs

The issue with a charge or a mine is they have to go EXACTLY where you expect them to go which is not always going to happen and takes uninterrupted time to prepare making it a fantastic idea but not a good hard counter on its own. Additionally, the katyusha is effective when I hit the blob, but the cool down combined with the wait between the sound of rockets being launched and the impact (giving the enemy time to prepare) make it an effective ace up my sleeve and a potential game saver but not an effective be-all-and-end-all hard counter.

I will say I have had some good effect with mortars against infantry blobs though. They have proven to be a much more consistent answer to OKW blobs.

I have to say I must be missing something obvious but it just feels as though the early game benefits of Russia are far outweighed by the late game benefits of either German side, at least in 2v2, (and in 3v3 and 4v4 where the win to loss ratio was in favor of the Germans by upwards of 80%). My friend and I began playing as the German armies in 2v2 games and have had consistently more wins than we do playing as Allies.

I do have to say though in 1v1 games I've found them to be far more effectively balanced. Perhaps that's been Relic's primary concern and 2v2 is considered less of a focus which I understand.

If anyone is able to tell me what I'm missing it would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks

The issue with a charge or a mine is they have to go EXACTLY where you expect them to go which is not always going to happen and takes uninterrupted time to prepare making it a fantastic idea but not a good hard counter on its own. Additionally, the katyusha is effective when I hit the blob, but the cool down combined with the wait between the sound of rockets being launched and the impact (giving the enemy time to prepare) make it an effective ace up my sleeve and a potential game saver but not an effective be-all-and-end-all hard counter.

I will say I have had some good effect with mortars against infantry blobs though. They have proven to be a much more consistent answer to OKW blobs.

-They *will* go there. Unless the opponent is totally suspicious of you having mines/charges, he will take the fastest route. You can also lure your opponent by falling back through your charges (not retreating), which by the way don't have to kill the whole blob. even if you kill one unit it was worth the munitions.

-Katy is not going to singlehandedly win you the game of course. But if he retreats to avoid being hit, then you held your ground and can cap and mine everything. When he returns you'll be ready with more stuff, mgs, quad, t70 (new patch hurray). And by the time he retreats you'll probably be able to katy his healing point.

-Double mortars are my fav soft-counter to blobs as well

-Try Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics. The incendiary barrage is the perfect tool to have when your katyusha is on cooldown.

I have to say I must be missing something obvious but it just feels as though the early game benefits of Russia are far outweighed by the late game benefits of either German side, at least in 2v2, (and in 3v3 and 4v4 where the win to loss ratio was in favor of the Germans by upwards of 80%). My friend and I began playing as the German armies in 2v2 games and have had consistently more wins than we do playing as Allies.

-You have more consistent wins because axis are somewhat easier to play. Riflenades have huge range and wipe potential, tanks are invincible, mgs don't require micro, etc.

-3v3 and 4v4 are not considered serious/competitive game modes, just for fun.


Also, everything I replied to Lendosan.

Thanks very much for the tips, I'll have to try mix it up a bit with a few of those ideas. I hadn't considered a few of those options that sound fantastic. I'm still not sure about putting so much importance into mines but I'll have to give it a try and see how it goes. Thanks again.

8 games played, hmmmm.... yes you can join okw forces and be "pro" but the story Will be absolutely the same.

pls come back later with more experience.

Before the rage hate replies arrive; what I have NOT said is "GERMANS OP!!1k&&3", Ostheer are perfectly balanced, we've found games against two Ostheer to be the closest, down to skill games. Its just the OKW "Five+ ranks of Veterancy, on the run AT support by dirt cheep armour that has so many skills you need two keyboards".

OKW can be challenging, until you just use the mighty m5 horde clubber and Scott spam, their blobs will be seriously halted. Combine this with demo charges (even mines upon demo charges can work) and some beautiful pak howitzers and your good to go. Even a heavy mortar can do some serious damage.

But in all seriousness, "dirt cheap armor"? It seems you have missed the fact that OKW has a fuel penalty and Soviets and USF can get out armor far sooner than OKW can. For example, you can get a fast Stuart as USF, a fast T-70 as Soviets and of course the mighty M5 of doom. The fact that OKW can get a quick puma is negated by the fact that you can get a faster Stuart en bazooka squad out (via teching).

OKW is not the roflestomp you think it is, in 2v2 Soviets dominate them, if you team up with USF it is debatable to whom has the upper hand. But good play and wiping their veterancy with demo charges and mines and scotts etc, will yield in victory.