USF & Ost, early game balance

Once more I got frustrated by COH2 shitty balance and roll back to COH1, I found this fundamental flaws back in launching of WFA, but seems no one ever agreed about this.

I really like COH1 US gameplay, which is very fluid, exciting, includes a lot of skilful flanking, harassing, forcing distraction, finding gaps of Wehr weak defence point and stomp into them, steamrolling Jerry again and again. But in COH2, there are NOTHING related to those. COH2 USF is just, BORING. All you need to just walk into the Nazi, outrageously totally shutting down Ostheer T1 units, and hope you can win in resource and have hell lot of Jacksons, 57mm, and skillplanes preventing Jerry raping you with big catz.

There are few comparison between COH1 and COH2

(1) Rifles and Volks/Ost Gren engagement

Initial cost:
Volks: 280
Rifles: 270

Reinforcing cost:
Volks: 22
Rifles: 27

In COH1, if Volks are in green cover and Rifles charging them, there is a high chance Rifles would marginally lose, yet Rifles have the higher reinforcing cost and upkeep. If Volks is in yellow cover and Rifles charging them, there is a high chance Rifles would win. Volks can easily win an early engagement by putting a sandbag and forcing all 5 models in that green cover. But it can be solved by adding an engi. Rifles + engi usually win Volks + pio.

Initial cost:
Volks: 235
Gren: 240
Rifles: 280

Reinforcing cost:
Volks: 23
Gren: 30 (WTF, the weakest in T1 but the highest)
Rifles: 28

In COH2, no matter what, Rifles shoot the hell out of Grens and Volks no matter where they are. Some may argue Rifles are more expensive so they should win. But, why? Why should Rifles be expensive and win no matter how the player skill involved?


(2) Speed of infantry

Any COH1 players feel COH2 infantry being too slow? Flanking is very rewarding in the first game against Wehr, but in COH2, they are like walking on the moon. You rather take out the MG by frontal assault than putting out a good flank because running the flanking route is too slow. That’s not good for the gameplay.


(3) Rifles and Wehr/Ost/OKW MG42/MG34


Wehr MG42: 250
Ost MG42: 240
OKW MG34: 210

Wehr MG42 is a hell killing machine. It shoot instantly and suppress a big area instantly in front of it. Rifles crawling on the floor would also being tear into piece one by one in matter of seconds, just like the incendiary round of COH2 MG42. MG42 can be easily counter by a good flanking, but it can be also counter by putting mines, wire, MP40 Volks, flamers, for the fatherland, putting another MG42 behind the first one and so on.

In COH2, both MG can’t kill shit. They shoot, Rifles got suppressed, that’s it. Grens and MG can’t effective killing the Rifles, mortar may wipe them out in this stage but it depends on RNG. If Rifles pop smoke, Ost lose the engagement, for sure.

(4) Wehr / Ost snipers

COH1 sniper is hell to a lot of players, they are strong, NOT easy to kill with infantry frontal assault, always cloaking, they can bleed the hell out of Rifles when used right. Theoretically Ostheer can do the same, but why? Getting snipers in Ost vs USF matchup is almost like suicide.

- Ost snipers can even easily killed with one M1 shot far range, while in green cover
- Ost ridiculous high teching cost, you struggle to pull out a Pak40 or M20/M18 win the game, faust doesn’t worth a lot because the crew can just jump out and repair instantly
- Even the sniper survive the early game, any indirect fire can easily kill him before he payoff his cost


There are some ideas fixing COH2 USF vs Ost early game,

- make all infantry movement increase by 10-20%, make flanking of all faction more viable.

- tune down Rifles cost to around 240~250, make them more squishy, punch less hard, just don’t let them easily frontal assault the axis that easy, but more speedy in movement, maybe increase their capping multiplier like COH1?

- make USF vehicle crew repair an universal upgrade, delete or make the repairing Crit at vet 3, fix their vet level according to the vehicle they drive.
Their possibly of preserving vet is good, but able to repairing their armour making a lot of effort damaging them is NOT rewarding. RE squad exist with a purpose right?

- Tuning cost of MG42 and MG34 to around 260~280, but make them REALLY the most fearsome MG in WW2, not popcorn sprayer

- Make wiring faster and slow down light vehicle crushing it, making wire more viable

- Get rid of smoke, or get rid of smoke from nade upgrade, upgrade after Lt / Captain unlocked

- Separate Lt&Cap spawn from tech tier unlock, having an “free” extra unit is an obvious flaw in balance

- Grens become 5 men squad?

- Ost teching must be cheaper

- Make Grens reinforcing cost cheaper, they are too expensive and suck

- Yeah, fix Ober and LMG42, I would like to see LMG being a light suppression output instead of frontally assault gun

- fix Ost sniper HP and Sov snipers balance AGAIN, make Sov sniper one dude or Ost able to kill them both with one shot. Counter-snipe exist for a reason.

Movement speed is ok.

Nerf Rifles? There are already squishy in late game. Make Grens avaible from HQ. This will solve few issuses.

Both MGs are still better than USF one.

No smoke? So how USF player suppose to counter Kubel at Semoisky bridge?

Ost tech does not need to be cheaper. I mean, just switch tech cost with building cost.

Rifles are squishy in lategame because LMG -> Fix LMG

Grens from HQ only means Grens arrive 30 secs earlier, doesn't solve Rifles frontally win everyone whatsoever.

Please leave OKW discussion out of this thread, or suggest another fix for a fix.

You can't just nerf rifles. They are the only real unit the US can build early game and they need to invest far more then even the soviets to unlock their abilities just to unlock their upgrades. If rifles were just as good as grens they would have the worst early game, if not just become the worst faction overall considering they rely on them so heavily. They don't even have access to elite infantry most the time so rifles are supposed to fill that role as well.

What you are basically asking for is for the US to have an early game consisting only of grens and nothing else. How can you call that balanced.

What could be done is to possibly delay smoke grenades til a officer is researched, so they can't just invalidate HMGs so early, and raise the cost of the luitenant to delay the m20, and m15 a bit. A few minor buffs for wher units would also help as well.

You can't just nerf rifles. They are the only real unit the US can build early game and they need to invest far more then even the soviets to unlock their abilities just to unlock their upgrades. If rifles were just as good as grens they would have the worst early game, if not just become the worst faction overall considering they rely on them so heavily. They don't even have access to elite infantry most the time so rifles are supposed to fill that role as well.

What you are basically asking for is for the US to have an early game consisting only of grens and nothing else. How can you call that balanced.

What could be done is to possibly delay smoke grenades til a officer is researched, so they can't just invalidate HMGs so early, and raise the cost of the luitenant to delay the m20, and m15 a bit. A few minor buffs for wher units would also help as well.

I don't think US in COH1 is shitty

- Rifles being the only real units in early game, checked
- Rifles need upgrades? nade, sticky, BAR, checked
- Rifles firepower > / = / < to Volks, depends on cover and skill, checked
- Rifles get shredded by MG42 frontally, checked
- 57mm shooting at Wehr vetted panzer, only 10%of health per shot? checked

Then what is your argument if Rifles cost and firepower tuning down would make USF weak?

Increase movement speed of infantry can make flanking more viable and interesting.

What a bullshit post. An ost fanboy basicly says nerf nerf nerf USF and buff buff buff OST

You can do better than this trolling, can't you?

How about we just make Grens 5 man a squad and buff 222 health?

Grens would be more durable and 222 could finally be an infantry counter which does not die not small arms fire.

How about we just make Grens 5 man a squad and buff 222 health?

Grens would be more durable and 222 could finally be an infantry counter which does not die not small arms fire.

Grens 5 dudes, yeah, I forget that, being suggested since 2013 but Relic

But 222 still being too shitty even the 20mm cannon is built-in, there is too many hard counters and the time frame they arrive is too late.

- Guards PTRS
- AT nades which cannot be avoided by moving out of effective range, I still can't get why Relic can't imply Sticky mechanism into COH2
- M20 crew with free zooka, that is quite stupid
- Mines one shot them

Meh. USF are only strong at early game because of rifles and t2. But in mid and late they are shit. USF have no elite inf expect airborn, but they are only in one doctrine. And u want to nerf rifles? Pfff, make some hmg42 and keep them together with grens and wait for mg42 for your grens.

guards and AT nades? I thought you were whining about how OP USF was against OST

To make it clear, I would like to nerf the ability of Rifles frontally assault and forcing them using flanking and speed fighting the Wehrmarct, like COH1. Not working them useless.

^Above, be reasonable or GTFO.

How about we just make Grens 5 man a squad and buff 222 health?

Grens would be more durable and 222 could finally be an infantry counter which does not die not small arms fire.

Like Barton nailed it "if grens will be a 5 men than cons must be 8 men"

To make it clear, I would like to nerf the ability of Rifles frontally assault and forcing them using flanking and speed fighting the Wehrmarct, like COH1. Not working them useless.

^Above, be reasonable or GTFO.

I did not know that rifles had a secret ability to frontally assault

^Above, be reasonable or GTFO.

Porygon I am correct in saying I played you as USF the other day, and from what is in this thread I can see you have thought about that game in relation to balance.

Firstly I 100% agree with you. I myself played a similar game yesterday as Ostheer, and the damage that a good or average player can inflict with Rifles creates a situation where by you can never fully recover from the early game, where USF excels.

I didnt even realize this, but when I played Cruzz's Kappatch I was pleasantly surprised to see Grens had been moved to the HQ. Overall this means that Osth can field Grens (a statistically inferior unit) quicker. I didnt even realize how good of an idea this was until I actually saw it.

My changes to USF Rifles would be:
1. Overall make the unit scale better by slightly adjusting ROF, or accuracy while moving (Early game play isnt just point and click)
2. Making late game Rifles more viable, by adjusting Vet stats or whatever. you essentially balance against two factions, where by Rifles can do enough damage to withstand Obers, Vet 5 Volks, and Grens w/ LMG's.
3. Also M20 needs to be looked at as well as the Lieutenant, currently you get a good (relative to time in game) infantry unit, which then is backed up pretty much straight away with an M20. usually Osth hasnt even built Tier 2 or hasnt even researched it, and having a Pak at the 5 Minute mark means you compromise on other areas.

Its also useless saying that Rifles should be balanced to make flanking more of an option. Players will more likely favour a method which requires little micro, but nets a result which is just slightly less than a high micro, high result method.

And jesus christ as my witness, the Infantry Doctrine M1919's needs a looking at, put 2 on each squad and A-move, and drop into Defensive stance, its crazy OP.

There are some ideas fixing COH2 USF vs Ost early game,

- make all infantry movement increase by 10-20%, make flanking of all faction more viable.

Ok not sure what I think about this. A bunch of OORAH infantry running around. Would look funny and forced retreats would be 10-20% less effective. But ok. I have no real opinion on this myself one way or the other.

- tune down Rifles cost to around 240~250, make them more squishy, punch less hard, just don’t let them easily frontal assault the axis that easy, but more speedy in movement, maybe increase their capping multiplier like COH1?

This will help against Ostheer but make them broken against OKW. Imagine Sturmpios/Rifles match up now.

- make USF vehicle crew repair an universal upgrade, delete or make the repairing Crit at vet 3, fix their vet level according to the vehicle they drive.
Their possibly of preserving vet is good, but able to repairing their armour making a lot of effort damaging them is NOT rewarding. RE squad exist with a purpose right?

Sure if you give BAR/Zook/Nades for Free and no upgrade cost. This is the worst idea in your post. Literally take away the one thing that is good about the USF. Changing the Crit repair to Vet 3 doesnt matter one fight and the Tank crew is Vet 3. Just change the repair speed on it and it would be fine. REs exist for Tank Traps/FPs and Wire/Sweeping. Alternativley GO AHEAD! But please make sure Pershing is a non doctrinal unit first...

- Tuning cost of MG42 and MG34 to around 260~280, but make them REALLY the most fearsome MG in WW2, not popcorn sprayer

This sounds legit.

- Make wiring faster and slow down light vehicle crushing it, making wire more viable

Sounds legit. Why not bring back the wire fields from Beta? Those were useful as hell.

- Get rid of smoke, or get rid of smoke from nade upgrade, upgrade after Lt / Captain unlocked

As soon as Panzer Tactician is removed....

- Separate Lt&Cap spawn from tech tier unlock, having an “free” extra unit is an obvious flaw in balance

This would be cool on its own but look at the combined list of ALL the things you want changed. You would make USF even worse then Ost is currently...

- Grens become 5 men squad?

And Scripts get an LMG42? This would break the Soviet matchup.

- Ost teching must be cheaper

Agreed 100%

- Make Grens reinforcing cost cheaper, they are too expensive and suck

They are more cost effective then Rifles. Not seeing how they suck. At Vet 2 with LMGs only a Vet 3 Dual BAR Rifles squad can deal with them. They outscale rifles FFS.

- Yeah, fix Ober and LMG42, I would like to see LMG being a light suppression output instead of frontally assault gun

Just make it less of an impact at range. Nerf all LMG damage or effective range.

- fix Ost sniper HP and Sov snipers balance AGAIN, make Sov sniper one dude or Ost able to kill them both with one shot. Counter-snipe exist for a reason.

No comment.

Please leave OKW discussion out of this thread, or suggest another fix for a fix.

Answers in line.

Can we please post balance threads in the balance forum? Is that too much to ask?

Can we please post balance threads in the balance forum? Is that too much to ask?

Sorry Inverse, I thought it doesn't exist.

All agreed !!!

...

And jesus christ as my witness, the Infantry Doctrine M1919's needs a looking at, put 2 on each squad and A-move, and drop into Defensive stance, its crazy OP.

Agree with the whole post. And Double M1919 is a MESS. It's a complete BS, it's worse than Ubers but only because it's doctrinal, people don't flame and rage like they do for Ubers.