A Soldier's Farewell

Miyazaki (yes, the famous cartoonist/animator) worked with Carius to make a manga version. It's a good read:

http://www.mangatank.com/manga/otto-carius-tigers-in-the-mud/v1/c1/1

I've read plenty of material regarding WW2 so you posting links to books I've already read are pointless. What do you disagree with in my posts? That the British Army got utterly destroyed by Wittmann? Evidence by German historians and WW2 German veterans conclude that Wittmann was a major factor in Germany's success in the Battle of Villars-Bocage, and that the British troops weren't skilled enough to form an effective defence against Wittmann's attacks.

If Wittmann had naval support or support from other armoured divisions like Carius did, I honestly think Wittmann could've defeated the entire British Army and pushed them back to their isles.


Getting back to Carius though, hopefully the Germans of today and the German Army recognise that Otto was simply a tank commander who fought for his country, and didn't care for the politics; his tactics and skills during WW2 should remind the German Army of their heritage and the immense power and skill they had.

Germany has fallen from grace if you will; their Prussian ancestors are most likely dissapointed at how Germany ended up. The Prussians were a very militaristic society and always had one of the best armies in the world; the current German Army pales in comparison to their WW2 and Prussian counterparts.

You sure you read Wegner/Rohrkamp? Nur unter uns Pfarrerstöchtern?
Until about mid-late 1942, ideological commitment played a major role in Waffen-SS recruitment and training. This is well borne-out sociologically. Many indicators that heavily indicated affinity to the NSDAP (membership in party organisations, declaring oneself "gottgläubig" etc.) were strongly overrepresented among the Waffen-SS, including the rank and file. Of course there were exceptions to that, but in statistical terms, it was heavily correlated. It continued to do so in the majority German SS-formations, (nota bene: The Waffen-SS was a multinational army if there ever was one, especially later in the war) even though de-facto this was undermined by the practice of conscription and sometimes outright forceful recruitment among the "Volksdeutsche", ie. the Prinz-Eugen Division.
Of course Wittmann was a major factor, heck, the major factor for the German success at Villers-Bocage, and yes, his intervention forced the British retreat. However, he also let himself get surprised and caught out of his position, forcing him to engage at very short ranges in a confused streetfight which were anything but ideal conditions for a Tiger to be in the first place.
If you seriously believe Wittmann, for all his skill, could have defeated the entire British Army, you are outright delusional. Whatever.
As for the Prussians, their army was by no means "always" among the best in the world, apart from being an overly simplistic statement to make in the first place, this is flat out hogwash, and the proof is in the pudding: The Prussian army was decisively defeated by a numerically inferior French force more than once during the Napoleonic wars and simply collapsed in the face of adversity in 1806, and while this is the most flagrant example, I could point out more instances of its performance in general being by no means universally sublime. Mind you, we are talking about a timeframe of almost 3 centuries here.
As for "falling from grace", whatever that may mean, well, I am a German, and German "heritage" amounts to much more than its Prussian component and always has. Speaking from my personal perspective, I am glad and feel priviledged that our military proficiency or lack thereof is for once not of major importance for our national wellbeing. There is much to be said for not being surrounded by antagonistic powers.

I've read plenty of material regarding WW2 so you posting links to books I've already read are pointless. What do you disagree with in my posts? That the British Army got utterly destroyed by Wittmann? Evidence by German historians and WW2 German veterans conclude that Wittmann was a major factor in Germany's success in the Battle of Villars-Bocage, and that the British troops weren't skilled enough to form an effective defence against Wittmann's attacks.

If Wittmann had naval support or support from other armoured divisions like Carius did, I honestly think Wittmann could've defeated the entire British Army and pushed them back to their isles.

If...if...if my Aunt Fanny had balls,she would have been a man...

Getting back to Carius though, hopefully the Germans of today and the German Army recognise that Otto was simply a tank commander who fought for his country, and didn't care for the politics; his tactics and skills during WW2 should remind the German Army of their heritage and the immense power and skill they had.

Germany has fallen from grace if you will; their Prussian ancestors are most likely dissapointed at how Germany ended up. The Prussians were a very militaristic society and always had one of the best armies in the world; the current German Army pales in comparison to their WW2 and Prussian counterparts.

This is, frankly, disturbing.

Germany is a well-respected, modern political power, which resiles from unnecessary conflict. Germany's current strength resides in its democratic refusal to be drawn again into 'rich men's wars'. I am reasonably certain that the Heer is quite capable of delivering what its country wishes it to deliver (which may not be what you seem to want,Reforever)

Re Forever,

You disgrace the man and the nation with your words sir, just stick to R.I.P. perhaps. You should educate yourself to forget the hateful past of this nation that has truly become even greater than your fantasy land Prussian glory day, as the Germans themselves understand they have done. And because one man in the SS wasn't so bad, does not forgive an organization based on hate and discrimination. How does a simple pay your respect thread need to always become a Neo-Haven, no wonder the bunker is a parking lot now. Keep it classy and neutral gents, as Bloodnok is trying his best to do.

Switzerland

If...if...if my Aunt Fanny had balls,she would have been a man...

Considering that the British had numbers on their side but still ran from the battle, and from Wittmann makes me believe that it would've been a high possibility. The British or more specifically men and women from the British isles aren't known for their fighting ability; it's why they relied on foreigners(Canadians, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders and etc) to to win wars and keep their empire alive. The British who fought against Wittmann were mostly from the UK, so it would explain why they routed so easily despite having more tanks, men and AT guns. Wittmann simply put was a playmaker; he either lost very badly or achieved resounding success in the battlefield.

Anyways, I think this discussion about Wittmann vs Carius is veering off topic. I simply stated that I think Wittmann was the better tank commander, and nothing will change that, so this topic should remain about Otto Carius, who no doubt was one of the finest tank commanders in WW2.

This is, frankly, disturbing.

Germany is a well-respected, modern political power, which resiles from unnecessary conflict. Germany's current strength resides in its democratic refusal to be drawn again into 'rich men's wars'. I am reasonably certain that the Heer is quite capable of delivering what its country wishes it to deliver (which may not be what you seem to want,Reforever)

Germany is the laughing stock of Europe(I'm laughing at Germany anyways) but they can make amends depending on what they do regarding Otto Carius. I don't believe Germans are necessarily stupid,so they should pay their respects to an officer who fought for their country, and grant him military honours. Otto wasn't charged with any war crimes so there's no reason not to honour him for his service to the fatherland.

In reading some of your posts, you come across as not meticulous enough with sources; for instance, the book "Michael Wittmann and Waffen SS Tigers of the Leibstandarte" is written by a neo-nazi, Pat Agte. It is hero worship and falsification, not history.

Carius' book, "Tigers in the Mud" is also unconfirmed by Soviet (TsAMO) and Allied sources so his claims should be taken with spoonfuls of salt.

On Axishistory.com, there are meticulous researchers that largely conclude that the "Tank Ace" phenomenon was a nazi propaganda invention via archival digs. As far as Wittmann goes, his Villers-Bocage Kill claim is not confirmed by Allied sources, in fact the allied records are closer to 1/3rd of his SS document. This incident was used to boost Nazi, particularly SS propaganda efforts and morale on the home front, and its significance was overblown.

In Carius' interview, he also says that Knispel's score was goosed up like his was.

All three were good tank soldiers, but hero-worship is not necessary.

One of the finest tank commanders in WW2(Not better than Wittmann though) and gave the Americans and Russians one hell of a fight, so he has my respect. I wonder if the modern German Army will attend his funeral or pay respects? In a way, men like Otto Cariius, Wittmann and Kurt Knispel paved the way for modern tank combat, and if there's any tank aces that emerge from future conflicts, they'll have these German tank commanders to thank.

Germany is the laughing stock of Europe(I'm laughing at Germany anyways) etc etc.

Your ridicule wounds us profusely, I assure you.

Considering that the British had numbers on their side but still ran from the battle, and from Wittmann makes me believe that it would've been a high possibility. The British or more specifically men and women from the British isles aren't known for their fighting ability;

You realise that this makes you a stand-out supremacist? ...or maybe you do not? (((sighs)))

...it's why they relied on foreigners(Canadians, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders and etc) to to win wars and keep their empire alive

Let me gently disabuse you of a few mistated facts: in the Northwest Europe campaign against the Axis from June 1944 onwards, the army on the Allied side included USA, Canadian, British, Free Poles, Free French (including colonial troops) Dutch and Free Belgians. AFAIK, the ground forces did not include Australians, Indians, New Zealanders. The allied airforce in NW Europe, OTOH, included Americans,Canadians, British, Australians,New Zealanders, Caribbeans, South Africans, Rhodesians, Free Poles, Czechs, Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians etc

The British infantry/tankers who fought against Wittmann were from the UK, so it would explain why they routed so easily despite having more tanks, men and AT guns. Wittmann simply put was a playmaker; he either lost very badly or achieved resounding success in the battlefield.

From Wiki ( to be read with caution):

Under the command of Brigadier William "Loony" Hinde, the 22nd Armoured Brigade group reached Villers-Bocage without serious incident in the morning of 13 June. The leading elements advanced eastwards from the town on the Caen road to Point 213, where they were ambushed by Tiger I tanks of the 101st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion. In fewer than 15 minutes numerous tanks, anti-tank guns and transport vehicles were destroyed, many by SS-Obersturmführer Michael Wittmann. The Germans then attacked the town and were repulsed, losing several Tigers and Panzer IV. After six hours Hinde ordered a withdrawal to a more defensible position on a knoll west of Villers-Bocage. Next day the Germans attacked the defensive "Brigade Box" in the Battle of the Island. The British inflicted a costly repulse on the Germans and then retired from the salient. The Battle for Caen continued east of Villers-Bocage, which was captured in ruins on 4 August, after two raids by the strategic bombers of the Royal Air Force.

The British conduct of the Battle of Villers-Bocage has been controversial, because the British withdrawal marked the end of the post D-Day "scramble for ground" and the start of an attritional battle for Caen. Historians have written that the British attack was a failure, caused by a lack of conviction among some senior commanders rather than the fighting power of the German army, although some judge the British force to have been insufficient for the task. The "single-handed" attack by Wittmann early on, has excited imaginations to the extent that some historians and writers conclude that it has dominated the historical record to an unwarranted degree and that while "remarkable", the role of Wittmann in the battle has been exaggerate

Anyways, I think this discussion about Wittmann vs Carius is veering off topic. I simply stated that I think Wittmann was the better tank commander, and nothing will change that, so this topic should remain about Otto Carius, who no doubt was one of the finest tank commanders in WW2.

It may have been off-topic,in which case you should not have have written it at all -but I think there does need to be a re-balance, now that you have advanced in Hilter-mode

Germany is the laughing stock of Europe(I'm laughing at Germany anyways) but they can make amends depending on what they do regarding Otto Carius. I don't believe Germans are necessarily stupid,so they should pay their respects to an officer who fought for their country, and grant him military honours. Otto wasn't charged with any war crimes so there's no reason not to honour him for his service to the fatherland.

Does Austrian blood course though your veins? Adolf Hitler is dead. (I assume from your familiar use of "Otto", that you were a personal friend of his?)

EDIT: I would not any of the above to take away from Middle East/Italian allied forces of which there many more, especially individuals like Anders Lassen VC, MC (+2 bars) (Denmark SBS)

You realise that this makes you a stand-out supremacist? ...or maybe you do not? (((sighs)))

Uhh, no it doesn't? What's your definition of "supremacist"? I simply stated that men and women from the British Isles can't fight because they've relied on foreigners to win all their wars, and you'll find that history and historical evidence is on my side. The Battle of Isandlwana is a prime example showing that men from the UK can't hold their own in a fight; they ended up being massively crushed by a bunch of peasant Africans.

Whenever Canadian, Australian, New Zealand or Indian troops were apart of the war, the British Army achieved resounding success, no doubt to my Canadian ancestors. Mind you, it was the Canadian Army and Canadian General Sir Isaac Brock who defeated the Americans in 1812, so having Canadian men and women fight for you increased the British Army's success ten-fold.

Anyways, Wittmann has proven that UK troops are no match for any competent enemy when he routed the British Army in Villers Bocage; I don't think even Carius has such an achievement under his belt.

Let me gently disabuse you of a few mistated facts: in the Northwest Europe campaign against the Axis from June 1944 onwards, the army on the Allied side included USA, Canadian, British, Free Poles, Free French (including colonial troops) and Free Belgians. AFAIK, the ground forces did not include Australians, Indians, New Zealanders. The allied airforce in NW Europe, OTOH, included Americans,Canadians, British, Australians,New Zealanders, Caribbeans, South Africans, Rhodesians, Free Poles, Czechs, Norwegians, Belgians etc

And? You simply proved that the UK needed foreign troops to win battles.

From Wiki ( to be read with caution):

Yeah, let's trust the Wiki where no doubt people changed certain parts because of politics or ideology.

It may have been off-topic,in which case you should not have have written it at all -but I think there does need to be a re-balance, now that you have advanced in Hilter-mode



Does Austrian blood course though your veins? Adolf Hitler is dead. (I assume from your familiar use of "Otto", that you were a personal friend of his?)

EDIT: I would not any of the above to take away from Middle East/Italian allied forces of which there many more, especially individuals like Anders Lassen VC, MC (+2 bars) (Denmark SBS)

It wasn't off-topic per say, but walked a thin line but I resent the fact that you call me a supremacist, even though I made no mention of troops from the UK being "genetically" inferior to Canadian troops. If I advancing in Hitler mode as you say, then I would be dismissing UK men and women because of their genetics, but quite clearly i'm not doing so.

No, i'm not Austrian( I'm French Canadian). Isn't Otto a part of his name or does the word "Otto" have another meaning i'm not aware of? I looked him up on Wiki and his name said "Otto Carius" so thus I use his fullname, if it's actually his full name.

Uhh, no it doesn't? What's your definition of "supremacist"? I simply stated that men and women from the British Isles can't fight because they've relied on foreigners to win all their wars, and you'll find that history and historical evidence is on my side. The Battle of Isandlwana is a prime example showing that men from the UK can't hold their own in a fight; they ended up being massively crushed by a bunch of peasant Africans.

Whenever Canadian, Australian, New Zealand or Indian troops were apart of the war, the British Army achieved resounding success, no doubt to my Canadian ancestors. Mind you, it was the Canadian Army and Canadian General Sir Isaac Brock who defeated the Americans in 1812, so having Canadian men and women fight for you increased the British Army's success ten-fold.

Anyways, Wittmann has proven that UK troops are no match for any competent enemy when he routed the British Army in Villers Bocage; I don't think even Carius has such an achievement under his belt.

And? You simply proved that the UK needed foreign troops to win battles.

Yeah, let's trust the Wiki where no doubt people changed certain parts because of politics or ideology.

It wasn't off-topic per say, but walked a thin line but I resent the fact that you call me a supremacist, even though I made no mention of troops from the UK being "genetically" inferior to Canadian troops. If I advancing in Hitler mode as you say, then I would be dismissing UK men and women because of their genetics, but quite clearly i'm not doing so.

No, i'm not Austrian( I'm French Canadian). Isn't Otto a part of his name or does the word "Otto" have another meaning i'm not aware of? I looked him up on Wiki and his name said "Otto Carius" so thus I use his fullname, if it's actually his full name.

^^ ^^

(Not worthy of a reply)

These discussions seem to not be in keeping with the original OP's thread and should probably be moderated thusly.
Perhaps the senior moderator and Reforever could take their discussions to another thread.

It seems like it's over now. I accept Bloodnok's surrender so maybe now we can return to remembering a tank ace who was one of the best in WW2. I'm surprised to see that despite days passing, barely any major media outlet is reporting his death; even the Vietnamese General who defeated the Americans in the Vietnam War got extensive media coverage, both domestically and abroad.

These discussions seem to not be in keeping with the original OP's thread and should probably be moderated thusly.
Perhaps the senior moderator and Reforever could take their discussions to another thread.

Noted, lDaveTankl

The British or more specifically men and women from the British isles aren't known for their fighting ability; it's why they relied on foreigners(Canadians, Australians, Indians, New Zealanders and etc) to to win wars and keep their empire alive.

Carius' death wasn't mentioned on the media (especially in Germany) for various reasons.
Many of those who actually witnessed WW2 are dying out.
Monthly, people like the last platoon leader of the Jagdpanzer battalion or the last gunner of a Panzer IV may die, but are not mentioned anywhere.
Of course the difference between Carius and other men is that had more confirmed kills than most other tankers.
But treating him differently because of this, therefore giving him publicity because he was a war hero in WW2, would be unnecessary glorification and despises others who died, but didn't have the same amount of kills.

Just my opinion ;-)

A salute is deserved here if ever there was one needed. A good officer and an even greater tactician has passed. It's a shame we don't see more respect towards more of these men of courage and honour.



@Bloodnok...Australians actually did serve as ground troops in WWII just not notably as front line troops. My great grandfather for instance served 1939–1944 for The Royal Australian Engineers in Europe, though I'm not sure of his exact position. sorry even more off topic. He also saw front line action in WWI 1914-1918 for the 24th Australian Infantry Battalion, so proud of him he's my hero!

Carius' kills are not confirmed. They are claims. There is a giant difference between the two..."Confirmed" kills must be corroborated with Soviet and Allied loss records.

Of course the difference between Carius and other men is that had more confirmed kills than most other tankers.

The US Army did not participate in the promotion of 'Tank Aces'. An armored division or battalion is a team, it fights as a team and accomplishes far more than knocking out tanks.

It looks like only the Germans and the Soviets took this concept seriously.

Carius' death wasn't mentioned on the media (especially in Germany) for various reasons.
Many of those who actually witnessed WW2 are dying out.
Monthly, people like the last platoon leader of the Jagdpanzer battalion or the last gunner of a Panzer IV may die, but are not mentioned anywhere.
Of course the difference between Carius and other men is that had more confirmed kills than most other tankers.
But treating him differently because of this, therefore giving him publicity because he was a war hero in WW2, would be unnecessary glorification and despises others who died, but didn't have the same amount of kills.

Just my opinion ;-)

Your Correct it was not mentioned and the reasons are indeed complex. But as you point out many of the men and women that witnessed WW2 are dying out. Its a shame they are not mentioned anywhere as they should be. All soldiers should for they have endured a hardship many can not fathom or ever will understand. But I beg to disagree with treating him differently. I have not treated the remembrance of Otto Carius any different than my own Grandfather. I made this Post not in honor of his kills but for his act of duty. The difference between Carius and my Grandfather is my Grandfather was a FeldWebel, and in a different Division. Furthermore Carius was more widely known upon the world stage. nothing more nothing less separates them. This is why the remembrance of Otto Carius is not a glorification but rather a time of reflection and respect.
Respectfully,
DasDoomTurtle

Carius was a member of 502nd Heavy. 2./502 with its 9 tigers was the first to get there, and Carius was one of them. The whole battalion later arrived. They fought in AGN sector for a long time, and I can kind of see why so many of the 502nd Tiger crews racked up a lot of kills. The Germans performed few offensive actions of note. For the defender, the terrain was restrained to narrow mobility corridors for approaching armor. The front was somewhat static, and a slugfest until early 1944 without major strategic collapses.

This meant that the tiger crews were able to get a lot of relevant experience and skill in that particular region without getting killed like in other sectors. Similarly, in the air there was Walter Nowotny of LF-I who shot down a ridiculous number of aircraft overhead.

Of course, this should not be distracted from the fact that he and his comrades helped maintain the siege of Leningrad, and helped kill over half a million civilians in the city.