IS-2 and Panther

People talking about the Panther vs IS-2 match up are getting it all wrong.

Both panthers are non-doctrinal for both German factions, building one effectively invalidates every allied non-doctrinal tank apart from the Jackson (which lacks AI power). The Panther is awesome, enough said.

Meanwhile the IS-2 is doctrinal (and Soviets aren't neccessarily going to build it or have the option to), it is the only Allied Heavy Tank (worth a damn), and it is expected to take on King Tigers (also non-doctrinal) and Tigers (which are roughly equal, I can't understand where everyone thinks this isn't true).

Panthers not only are a serious threat to IS-2s, they outrange them, are faster and have blitz. On top of all that, they're non-doctrinal.

I think the core of the issue is that German players are unused to having their shots bounce off an enemy tank. They're used to facing T-34s and Shermans whose armour is paper against Panthers and Tigers. Then the IS-2 shows up and suddenly they aren't penetrating so much and the IS-2 is giving as good as its getting.

The solution is therefore obvious.

IS-2 OP plz nerf.


Buffing any Axis armour will just render Allied non-doctrinal armour all the more useless. Don't. Axis late game is overpowered enough as it is.

People talking about the Panther vs IS-2 match up are getting it all wrong.

Both panthers are non-doctrinal for both German factions, building one effectively invalidates every allied non-doctrinal tank apart from the Jackson (which lacks AI power). The Panther is awesome, enough said.

Meanwhile the IS-2 is doctrinal (and Soviets aren't neccessarily going to build it or have the option to), it is the only Allied Heavy Tank (worth a damn), and it is expected to take on King Tigers (also non-doctrinal) and Tigers (which are roughly equal, I can't understand where everyone thinks this isn't true).

Panthers not only are a serious threat to IS-2s, they outrange them, are faster and have blitz. On top of all that, they're non-doctrinal.

I think the core of the issue is that German players are unused to having their shots bounce off an enemy tank. They're used to facing T-34s and Shermans whose armour is paper against Panthers and Tigers. Then the IS-2 shows up and suddenly they aren't penetrating so much and the IS-2 is giving as good as its getting.

The solution is therefore obvious.

IS-2 OP plz nerf.


Buffing any Axis armour will just render Allied non-doctrinal armour all the more useless. Don't. Axis late game is overpowered enough as it is.

Why not nerf the Is2 along with the rest of the heavies and tone down Panther armor? Wouldn't that go a long way in making allied standard armor, and axis mediums more viable?

As for the tiger vs is2, test it for yourself. The is2 completely and utterly dominates the tiger. Maybe it should win but not by as much and not while it's still nearly immune to all Wehr At except Panthers, which aren't exactly viable for Wehr to field.

A Tiger 1 with 1280 hp with it's current armour would be ok (like it was)Enough penetrating shots and some better survivability.

How would that help battle the heavy tank spam meta?

Heavies should be choice, not braindead upgrade, heavies should have some disadvantages over mediums and no, slower turret rotation is not disadvantage really.

Why not nerf the Is2 along with the rest of the heavies and tone down Panther armor? Wouldn't that go a long way in making allied standard armor, and axis mediums more viable?

I have the same feeling - the problem shouldn't be adjustig heavies between them, but bring the "heavy bar" a little lower for all of them and make them, as Katitof said, a choice, not the only way of playing.

...
-Damage modifier for back armor (x1.5) and maybe also for front armor (x0.75) hits
...

i think that is a great idea. although i feel x1.5 might be too much. for me, x1.25 for the rear.

except for atg.

also, side armour pls relic.

IS-2 is the last heavy armor standing for the Allied faction (ISU got nerfed to bat shit). If any adjustments are made, I think Axis heavy armor and panthers need to take a hit like Ciez said. I honestly dont think Panther has any problems fighting against IS-2. The reload speed on the IS-2 is slow, on top of that the Panther can out range and out maneuver the damn thing.

Yes the shots can be bounced off the IS-2, welcome to the pain of fighting against Axis armor.

To those saying Panther's negate all allied none doctrinal armour the SU85 still does decent vs both Panthers (3 technically if you count the Commanther) but like the jagdpanzer, you want to aim to get it early and get some vet on it.

To those saying Panther's negate all allied none doctrinal armour the SU85 still does decent vs both Panthers (3 technically if you count the Commanther) but like the jagdpanzer, you want to aim to get it early and get some vet on it.

That's true, but in the world of volks shrek blobs, an SU-85 isn't something you want to get early on, I'd rather a Katy or SU-76M...

Why not nerf the Is2 along with the rest of the heavies and tone down Panther armor? Wouldn't that go a long way in making allied standard armor, and axis mediums more viable?

As for the tiger vs is2, test it for yourself. The is2 completely and utterly dominates the tiger. Maybe it should win but not by as much and not while it's still nearly immune to all Wehr At except Panthers, which aren't exactly viable for Wehr to field.

Seems like a decent idea.

The KT still needs a look in.
That thing being non-doctrinal is just crazy.

Not won over by the Tiger dominated IS idea though. Everytime I've run across a Tiger it's been a pretty even match.
Considering the effectiveness of OH non-doctrinal armour compared to Soviet armour, in the grand scheme of things I don't think it's as significant as some make out. IS-2 is strong, but it's backed up by comparitively poor armour. A Tiger backed up by some of the OH late-game armour is a serious problem.

Marco, ffs. What OH "late game armour" exactly do you think is gonna back up a Tiger? You either go straight to Tiger with T2, if your early goes well you might go T3 with a PIV and then follow it up with a Tiger eventually, or every once in a blue moon you might try to go T4, however the latter option will effectively preclude you from fielding a Tiger, not only because this is only really viable with certain docs (none of which feature a Tiger), and has exorbitant fuel costs attached.
As for IS-2 vs Tiger, IS-2 has considerably stronger armor, more pen, and just slightly lower ROF. Unless the RNG gods literally shit all over you, there is no way you will ever lose an IS-2 to a Tiger.

IS-2 is the last heavy armor standing for the Allied faction (ISU got nerfed to bat shit). If any adjustments are made, I think Axis heavy armor and panthers need to take a hit like Ciez said. I honestly dont think Panther has any problems fighting against IS-2. The reload speed on the IS-2 is slow, on top of that the Panther can out range and out maneuver the damn thing.

Yes the shots can be bounced off the IS-2, welcome to the pain of fighting against Axis armor.

Just dont let the IS2 reach vet 2

i think that is a great idea. although i feel x1.5 might be too much. for me, x1.25 for the rear.

except for atg.

also, side armour pls relic.

The only problem is that frontal hit can register as rear hits and viceversa. You can't take into account angle and positioning.

Marco, ffs. What OH "late game armour" exactly do you think is gonna back up a Tiger? You either go straight to Tiger with T2, if your early goes well you might go T3 with a PIV and then follow it up with a Tiger eventually, or every once in a blue moon you might try to go T4, however the latter option will effectively preclude you from fielding a Tiger, not only because this is only really viable with certain docs (none of which feature a Tiger), and has exorbitant fuel costs attached.
As for IS-2 vs Tiger, IS-2 has considerably stronger armor, more pen, and just slightly lower ROF. Unless the RNG gods literally shit all over you, there is no way you will ever lose an IS-2 to a Tiger.

Dude, look at the options open to you.

Compare Soviets versus OH.

Soviets are almost always going to have only 2 buildings built, either T1/2 (generally 2) into T3/4, or else T1+2 into callins.

OH, even with the fuel issues you describe, can still get 3 buildings, have a superior range of units available to them.

I'm gonna be shouted down for this, because it doesn't reflect supposed conventional thinking, but StuG IIIs, they outrange the IS, they're relatively cheap. It's got that stun shot, which is really powerful and it's okay against infantry. It'll already be engaging the IS before it gets into range itself, it won't penetrate too well (but that's nothing new with allied hardware), but the combined power of them both will generally do the trick.

And for another thing. Why has the asymmetrical balance thing suddenly vanished when the Tiger is perceived as the inferior unit? Aren't allies allowed effective armour that requires flanking and preparation to defeat?

OH has the advantage of being able to fall back on the Panther, easily the best medium tank on the game and non-doctrinal when things go pearshaped. Soviets have no such possibility.



On another note, I agree Ostheer teching costs are too high, however I don't know what you could do to make it cheaper with making them tech up too quickly, same deal with Soviet teching.

Just dont let the IS2 reach vet 2

Yeah, definitly, "you should flank it" (C) generic Axis player
#l2flank

On more serious note - as a mostly 4v4 player (!!!) I think that
IS-2, Panther, Tiger, Jagdtiger and ISU-152 are fine, except, maybe, some specific situations/maps.

At least balance team should rework teching costs for vanila factions before rebalancing doctrinal IS-2 and non-doctrinal Panther.

I am of the opinion that heavies should stick around, but make mediums better. Honestly relic has no idea how to properly bring something down to a reasonable level with out making it useless so I would rather seem them just crank of the dial and make mediums have long lasting potential.

You could easily do this by making it so vet makes mediums insanely more strong or just buffing them in general.

Dude, look at the options open to you.

Compare Soviets versus OH.

Soviets are almost always going to have only 2 buildings built, either T1/2 (generally 2) into T3/4, or else T1+2 into callins.

OH, even with the fuel issues you describe, can still get 3 buildings, have a superior range of units available to them.

I'm gonna be shouted down for this, because it doesn't reflect supposed conventional thinking, but StuG IIIs, they outrange the IS, they're relatively cheap. It's got that stun shot, which is really powerful and it's okay against infantry. It'll already be engaging the IS before it gets into range itself, it won't penetrate too well (but that's nothing new with allied hardware), but the combined power of them both will generally do the trick.

And for another thing. Why has the asymmetrical balance thing suddenly vanished when the Tiger is perceived as the inferior unit? Aren't allies allowed effective armour that requires flanking and preparation to defeat?

OH has the advantage of being able to fall back on the Panther, easily the best medium tank on the game and non-doctrinal when things go pearshaped. Soviets have no such possibility.



On another note, I agree Ostheer teching costs are too high, however I don't know what you could do to make it cheaper with making them tech up too quickly, same deal with Soviet teching.

You are not gonna get "shouted down" for anything, its just that you indulge in obvious theorycrafting that is apparently not backed up by practical gameplay experience. Advice such as to go for StuGs in order to deal with an IS-2 is frankly about as bizarre as would be the recommendation to go for Su-76s to check Tigers.
As for asymetrical balance, and the Tiger being an inferior unit, I dont recall even having brought that up, but be that as it may: While the Tiger cannot stand up to the IS-2 by itself, it is not necessarily inferior to the IS-2 when considered in its entirety, it has stronger dps vs infantry and solid squadwiping potential after all, but it also is the universal OH crutch at present, and in the context of balance any units that negate its impact are indeed problematic, since in the present meta, during the early-mid game both Soviets and US, especially the latter will have had OH on the back foot.

Anyways, if you will allow me saying so, why not play all factions, and see for yourself? Just sticking to one faction has to be boring in the long run, not to mention you deprive yourself of much of the content you have paid money for? Variatio delectat and such. Plus, actually playing OH will significantly improve your Soviet play as well, I can promise you that.

You are not gonna get "shouted down" for anything, its just that you indulge in obvious theorycrafting that is apparently not backed up by practical gameplay experience. Advice such as to go for StuGs in order to deal with an IS-2 is frankly about as bizarre as would be the recommendation to go for Su-76s to check Tigers.
As for asymetrical balance, and the Tiger being an inferior unit, I dont recall even having brought that up, but be that as it may: While the Tiger cannot stand up to the IS-2 by itself, it is not necessarily inferior to the IS-2 when considered in its entirety, it has stronger dps vs infantry and solid squadwiping potential after all, but it also is the universal OH crutch at present, and in the context of balance any units that negate its impact are indeed problematic, since in the present meta, during the early-mid game both Soviets and US, especially the latter will have had OH on the back foot.

Anyways, if you will allow me saying so, why not play all factions, and see for yourself? Just sticking to one faction has to be boring in the long run, not to mention you deprive yourself of much of the content you have paid money for? Variatio delectat and such. Plus, actually playing OH will significantly improve your Soviet play as well, I can promise you that.

Using Stugs against IS-2 was a very popular way to dealing with this unit prior to WFA. I remember Imperial Dane always recommended using Stugs due their fast reload and range, not to mention cheap cost. I actually find myself using IS-2 vs 2-3 Stugs (or worse vet stun ability) to be very lethal. 2-3 Stugs actually gave my Jackson some trouble too because of range and reload speed. Stugs in general are very cost efficient unit against SU (as OST vs Sov are balanced), USF OST is just difficult.