Login

russian armor

Where is USF air superiority?

16 Jan 2015, 13:04 PM
#1
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003

Where is USF air superiority?
Axis have heavy tanks and elite infantry, Soviets have "many", ehm, decent heavy tanks, swarm medium tanks and many infantry. USF in war have untrained infantry, poor tanks, but absolut air dominance and strong artilery. Firs two have in game, but why USF in game dont have air attacks? Only one commander have P-47 AT strike (realy strong) and second commander have recon aircraft. Major can call reacon also, but other sides have much more air strikes and bombs attack, then USF. Why?

Relic hate USA or history?
16 Jan 2015, 13:07 PM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

In all the axis commanders who got tons of various plane off-maps even thou the game is settled at the time where luftwaffe was harder to spot then dodo birds.
16 Jan 2015, 13:13 PM
#3
avatar of Glendizzle

Posts: 149

Agreed. I'm not saying usf should have a skillplane in every doctrine but there should be a army air corps doxtrine. clone the damn ostheer one for all i care, just give the army with the most superior air force some sort of air presence in the game. ive thought this since the beginning of WFA.
16 Jan 2015, 13:24 PM
#4
avatar of CasTroy

Posts: 559

Maybe its the lack of U.S. Commanders? There are only 6 U.S./OKW towards how many Wehr and Soviet ones?
16 Jan 2015, 13:47 PM
#5
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923

Because a) It would be boring and b) less tanks were knocked by airpower than claimed by the airforce. According to Niklas Zetterlings book Normady 1944 only about 7% of destroyed german tanks during the Normandy campaign (circa 1500 in total) can be said to have been knocked by airpower.

In Sledgehammer by Christopher Willbeck he explores the knocked Tigers during operation Goodwood. 13 were lost to airpower, 7 of them by high altitude carpet bombers before Goodwood began. Typhoons knocked 6 of them.

During the entire Operation goodwood the two airwings claimed some 390 knocked tanks. After the battle some 460 heavy German AFVs were standing knocked out on the battlefield, 300 were inspected. 10 had been knocked by airlaunched rockets. 3% of claimed became confirmed.

At Mortain the airforce of the allies claimed about 75 more kills than the germans had tanks.

Basically this myth about rockets from P-47s and Typhoons being the bane of German tankers is nothing more than a myth. AT-guns did the most of the damage both in the east and west.


There is your explanation, it doesn't make sense form a gameplay standpoint nor from an historical one.
16 Jan 2015, 13:54 PM
#6
avatar of CasTroy

Posts: 559

There is your explanation, it doesn't make sense form a gameplay standpoint nor from an historical one.


True dat and well explained. But unfortunately historic facts are not sellable to the common ruck.
16 Jan 2015, 14:13 PM
#7
avatar of SlaYoU

Posts: 400

Well to be fair, it is somewhat obvious that Germans had lost air control on both fronts at the end of the war. This is somewhat reflected by the fact that OKW, which represents latewar German army, has almost no form of air abilities. Wehrmacht, which represents early war Germans, have plenty of air abilities, to represent their massive air superiority over the Soviets during Barbarossa. The problem lies more in the design choices, which lets the same army being represented together while being from two distinct timeframes (and obviously lets also USF fight alongside USSR).

Also i'm surprised by your post somenbjorn, even though i'm an avid history geek of that period, i still believed in the "myth" you are describing. You learn new things every day, thank you ;)
16 Jan 2015, 14:17 PM
#8
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 14:13 PMSlaYoU
Well to be fair, it is somewhat obvious that Germans had lost air control on both fronts at the end of the war. This is somewhat reflected by the fact that OKW, which represents latewar German army, has almost no form of air abilities.


Airborne assault
16 Jan 2015, 14:26 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 14:13 PMSlaYoU
Wehrmacht, which represents early war Germans, have plenty of air abilities, to represent their massive air superiority over the Soviets during Barbarossa.


Relic has stated multiple times that Ostheer represents 1944 army on full retreat, that is why they are so defensively designed.

The only early war representation is within mechanized assault doctrine with MP40 assault troops and stubby stugs, everything else is late war stuff when germans were on the run and soviets on the offensive.

Soviets are designed as early war army with 3 units from the end of the war.
16 Jan 2015, 14:34 PM
#10
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701



Airborne assault


Read his post better.
16 Jan 2015, 14:43 PM
#11
avatar of aradim

Posts: 110

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 13:54 PMCasTroy


True dat and well explained. But unfortunately historic facts are not sellable to the common ruck.


I guess that must have been the reason why the nazis wouldn't dare launch an attack without unfavourable weather conditions for allied planes.
16 Jan 2015, 15:01 PM
#12
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003

Because a) It would be boring and b) less tanks were knocked by airpower than claimed by the airforce. According to Niklas Zetterlings book Normady 1944 only about 7% of destroyed german tanks during the Normandy campaign (circa 1500 in total) can be said to have been knocked by airpower.

In Sledgehammer by Christopher Willbeck he explores the knocked Tigers during operation Goodwood. 13 were lost to airpower, 7 of them by high altitude carpet bombers before Goodwood began. Typhoons knocked 6 of them.

During the entire Operation goodwood the two airwings claimed some 390 knocked tanks. After the battle some 460 heavy German AFVs were standing knocked out on the battlefield, 300 were inspected. 10 had been knocked by airlaunched rockets. 3% of claimed became confirmed.

At Mortain the airforce of the allies claimed about 75 more kills than the germans had tanks.

Basically this myth about rockets from P-47s and Typhoons being the bane of German tankers is nothing more than a myth. AT-guns did the most of the damage both in the east and west.


There is your explanation, it doesn't make sense form a gameplay standpoint nor from an historical one.


Why you speak about efficiency? Do not confuse efficiency with the fact.

In 1944 german dont have fuel, factories did not produce enough tanks and tanks had technical problems. Most trained soldiers were already dead or in captivity.

Myth? This game is full of myth. Blitz in 1944, Obersoldaten (what is this? zombies on steroids from Wolfenstain? Sturmtiger and Ostwind (zero impact in war and only few pieces).
16 Jan 2015, 15:03 PM
#13
avatar of Zupadupadude

Posts: 618

US Soldiers weren't untrained.
16 Jan 2015, 15:06 PM
#14
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 14:13 PMSlaYoU


Also i'm surprised by your post somenbjorn, even though i'm an avid history geek of that period, i still believed in the "myth" you are describing. You learn new things every day, thank you ;)


No worries, Im sure I believe some untruths to be true. WW2 is suffering much from war time propaganda being carried over by to the cold war and then repeated ad nausium for 60 years. :facepalm:
Fanboys from all sides digging up shit sources from the last century keeps the myths alive.

Had to debunk the "Polish cavalrymen charging panzers" myth so often I have a good source bookmarked at home :guyokay:
16 Jan 2015, 15:07 PM
#15
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

I was wondering the very same thing, USF lacks air power. I think it would be redundant if we give USF the same abilities as Osth tho. How about adding a powerful muni heavy (200+) carpet bomb ability in a commander?
16 Jan 2015, 15:08 PM
#16
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 15:01 PMAradan


Why you speak about efficiency? Do not confuse efficiency with the fact.

In 1944 german dont have fuel, factories did not produce enough tanks and tanks had technical problems. Most trained soldiers were already dead or in captivity.

Myth? This game is full of myth. Blitz in 1944, Obersoldaten (what is this? zombies on steroids from Wolfenstain? Sturmtiger and Ostwind (zero impact in war and only few pieces).


Then just focus on a) It wouldn't be fun. Skillplanes are currently boring as hell. Adding more will not help the situation. It is better to have the player micro units that click two buttons to counter a threat.
16 Jan 2015, 15:11 PM
#17
avatar of CasTroy

Posts: 559

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 14:43 PMaradim
I guess that must have been the reason why the nazis wouldn't dare launch an attack without unfavourable weather conditions for allied planes.

Nope, there are a plenty of reasons why the Nazis didn´t launch an attack earlier than the "Battle of the Bulge". Just think about the allied designated target of Operation "Market Garden" on the other side: Capturing intact bridges over the river rhine but also capturing enough deep water harbours supplying the troops and ending the "Red Ball Express" from normandy. Analysing history is not just saying "Ohh, that´s the best tank in WWII" or "Yeah, the nazis had the best armies in the fourties!" ;)

Edit: Nor it is memorization of facts everybody does in history courses at school.
16 Jan 2015, 15:12 PM
#18
avatar of DasDoomTurtle

Posts: 438

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 15:01 PMAradan


Why you speak about efficiency? Do not confuse efficiency with the fact.

In 1944 german dont have fuel, factories did not produce enough tanks and tanks had technical problems. Most trained soldiers were already dead or in captivity.

Myth? This game is full of myth. Blitz in 1944, Obersoldaten (what is this? zombies on steroids from Wolfenstain? Sturmtiger and Ostwind (zero impact in war and only few pieces).


1) German production levels of 1944 were no less than the previous years, in fact they increased.
2) Alot of trained soldiers were dead but almost every german soldier had training even the teenagers before entering combat, thus ur point makes no sense.
3) Blitz is the name of an ability (tank drives faster) this is not related to Blitzkrieg.
4) Obersoldaten represent the elite of the elite that were still alive. SS Nord had moved from Finland to the Western Front by end of 1944 (My grandfather had been with them). Sturmtiger did exist and Ostwind did as well.
16 Jan 2015, 15:16 PM
#19
avatar of Zupadupadude

Posts: 618

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 15:11 PMCasTroy

Nope, there are a plenty of reasons why the Nazis didn´t launch an attack earlier than the "Battle of the Bulge". Just think about the allied designated target of Operation "Market Garden" on the other side: Capturing intact bridges over the river rhine but also capturing enough deep water harbours supplying the troops and ending the "Red Ball Express" from normandy. Analysing history is not just saying "Ohh, that´s the best tank in WWII" or "Yeah, the nazis had the best armies in the fourties!" ;)


I don't think he means that's the main reason they launched Wacht Am Rhein when they did. Pretty sure he means that's partly the reason why they chose the 16th instead of for example the 15th of december.
16 Jan 2015, 15:16 PM
#20
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053


There is your explanation, it doesn't make sense form a gameplay standpoint nor from an historical one.


But it annoys me that for "gameplay", King Tiger and Jagdtigers were readily available and deployed everywhere. The Battle of the Bulge AKA battle of the heavy tank fetish. -_-
Allied air "superiority" had been bombing strategic positions as well as keeping control of the sky, but the secret underground nazi super factories that are mass producing super heavy tanks cannot be stopped.

Besides, real tanks that were properly mass produced and performed well without large mechanical failures did all the work. I can design stereotypes without the drawbacks, too. :/
2 users are browsing this thread: 2 guests

Livestreams

Germany 30
Germany 870

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

1011 users are online: 1011 guests
3 posts in the last 24h
3 posts in the last week
23 posts in the last month
Registered members: 48727
Welcome our newest member, sunwinctcom
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM