Jackson needs a slight buff

I meant in the context of reality.....

Well yes , in terms of reality, IS-2 is more comparable to the king tiger than the tiger I, however, in game IS-2 costs as much as a tiger, therefore they must be comparable.


I mean i guess we could make the IS-2 cost something like 320 fuel and make it like a KT... but i woudln't go that way..

I think the problem people are ignoring is that the Jacksons biggest weakness is it's low health and low armor. Really I think it's pen should say the same and it's damage be reduced. But it should have better armor and health. It's very mobile for a TD, and I think it having that mobility and the ability to take a hit would go a long way towards improving USF's late game without fucking over Ostheer harder.

I think the problem people are ignoring is that the Jacksons biggest weakness is it's low health and low armor. Really I think it's pen should say the same and it's damage be reduced. But it should have better armor and health. It's very mobile for a TD, and I think it having that mobility and the ability to take a hit would go a long way towards improving USF's late game without fucking over Ostheer harder.

As it stands it already has a weaker gun then an SU85. Any nerf to it damage output without an increase in penetration would just make it total and complete crap. So if say we put its TTK a P4 to 20 seconds and make its Pen like that of a Panther it would balance out I think. Even if relic wants to plop a higher cost to it.

Giving it more HPs would make it a bit easier to lose the game with. It needs to be able to tackle armor with over 1000HPs afterall being the Apex of USF AT. With a TTK a P4 of 20 seconds assuming that it would be shooting at a Tiger and up it would take around 35 seconds if 100% of the shots hit and penetrated.

If you lower its damage and do not increase its Pen then your looking more like 60 seconds. So a Tiger can literally drive at a Jackson for a full minute without being destroyed. Keeping in mind a Jackson costs close to what a no tech Tiger costs.

So your ignoring the facts and putting in scenarios. Simple as that. The SU85 CAN kill armor better and especially with Mark Vehicle. Whether or not that is the meta is not relevant. There has been units with Turrets that did 240 Damage a shot since the game has been introduced. This means the ONLY thing that is special about the Jackson AT ALL is its mobility. Which is balanced by its terrible HPs and Armor.

I can AS the Soviets do better with Dual T34/85s out of Guards Motor then I can with a Jackson. Then I have a combined 1600HPs doing 240 a shot at closer ranges and getting better Penetration as a result AND having AI.

The 240 damage a shot at least in 1v1 where YOU CANT POSSIBLY have Mark Vehicle (as USF) is just a Straw Man.
Especially when you consider there is no IS2 or ISU152 or hell even KV1 for USF.

You can try all you want and throw in all this "What-Ifs" but the stats do not lie. All the Soviets need to do is snare a tank and the SU85 will do better then the Jackson. And Soviets do not lack snares. Now most people wont do that in the current meta because the Teching costs are fucked. That has nothing to do with the units.

Edit: And sorry Double Zook rifles now that is hilarious. You must be talking about 4v4 there...

What facts?What are u going to believe..perceptions on paper or actual ingame realities?
Don't try to twist the issue from su-85 to t-34/85.I have never said t-34/85 is a worse option than su-85,only that jackson is better than su-85 which most will agree and that jackson plus pershing would be even more intimidating than is-2 and su-85,especially because americans have uber infantry as well.
Again u try to twist things onto mark target which is totally irrelevant,nobody uses mark traget with su-85,but rather with t-34/85s.And Mark target is not available with is-2 ,so the actual scenario in discussion doesn't even take place.Its not me putting in scenarios,its you.

Let's ask the forumers themselves then since ur so convinced ,what is better..su-85 or jackson.I'm all up for a poll.I as a predominately german player can say with close eyes jackson.

I dont need a Forum to tell me what the stats tell me. Does the Jackson kill more tanks in multiplayer then an SU85? SURE! Its used in almost every game. Why use an SU85 when you can do better with other options that are more useful?

The USF has nothing more useful. But if for example you tomorrow gave 30 muni mines to the USF and gave them both Mark Vehicle and an SU85 then you would see it used and used effectively.

Hell even giving the JP4 with mines to the USF you would also see it used and used effectively.

There are many many many reasons not to use the SU85 as the Soviets. Just as there are many reasons to not use the JP4 as OKW.

Also if tomorrow you gave the USF a no tech heavy tank call in option you would probably never see the Jackson again.

No one likes a one trick pony in the armor department. Especially one that is expensive (SU85 with Tech, JP4). Cost will make a unit non viable.

Evidently you have a short memory. When they first nerfed the SU85 and the IS2 and ISU hadnt yet received their buffs Soviet players used Mark and the SU85 as it was the only thing back then that would stop Panther spam. And they were used with copious amounts of mines.

Jackson kills,su-85 can push back and needs support.It can't finish off.Ur DPS thing over time ignores realities,tanks will hardly stay in ur firing cone for 20 secs and let u get shot after shot.All u get is 1-3 shots before it moves back,smoke or away.Jackson is a beast in this regard and can kill while backtracking which su-85 can't do against any save low health pz 4s.Jacksons are a terror in number.2 jacksons are far far better than 2 su-85s.

As for that short memory thing.In case u forgot back then the t-34/85 was shit before they buffed it.If it was what it is today no one would bother with su-85.Also u conviniently forgot su-85 used to be very mobile back then,certainly not the lumbering fatso of today.

Let's ask the forumers themselves then since ur so convinced ,what is better..su-85 or jackson.I'm all up for a poll.I as a predominately german player can say with close eyes jackson.

U need alot of luck with jackson for it to be effective. Some games its a beast. Others, it has trouble penetrating a vet2 p4 with skirts

Get an SU-85 to vet 2+ the fire rate is insane. plus i can trust it to penetrate heavy armor

I really dont think you have used it.

Damage aside, the su85 can penetrate more

Jackson kills,su-85 can push back and needs support.It can't finish off.Ur DPS thing over time ignores realities,tanks will hardly stay in ur firing cone for 20 secs and let u get shot after shot.All u get is 1-3 shots before it moves back,smoke or away.Jackson is a beast in this regard and can kill while backtracking which su-85 can't do against any save low health pz 4s.Jacksons are a terror in number.2 jacksons are far far better than 2 su-85s.

As for that short memory thing.In case u forgot back then the t-34/85 was shit before they buffed it.If it was what it is today no one would bother with su-85.Also u conviniently forgot su-85 used to be very mobile back then,certainly not the lumbering fatso of today.

You make 0 sense here. You are defying Physics. It doesnt MATTER the number of shots if the TTK is slower. Unless of course your talking about just causing damage and not killing.

Dont you see how your logic breaks down?

Jackson takes LONGER to kill a tank then an SU85. Yet somehow in your argument since it does more damage per shot its magically going to kill a tank that would otherwise speed away from an SU85?

If you chase with a Jackson you LOSE the Jackson in almost all cases with any support. Its not worth the risk unless your talking about the final blow on a KT or Tiger.

Both TDs are defensive. The Jackson does have any easier time pushing with support if you have the Micro due to its turret and its speed. But if you take Tank A and snare it then the SU85 will kill it faster. Its got a better gun. You just need to overcome its weaknesses.

Its not viable in the meta because of the maps combined with how they overnerfed the SU85 combined with the crappy Tier cost. It has nothing to do with the SU85 quality of Penetration, Range and Damage.

Since we are going into Scenerios let me give you this. Against a Heavy how do you site for the Jackson? Let me tell you! You PAY for it. Either with Fuel or Manpower. Any tank that sites is a potential loss and infantry will get butchered. This is something the SU85 DOESNT have to deal with.

But again why use a slow fat TD when you can do better with high HP Mediums? Why?

Give Easy 8s Mark Vehicle and NO ONE would use the Jackson...And an Easy 8 doesnt even have the HPs of a T34/85....

You seem to think and tow the party line that THE ONLY THING IN THIS GAME THAT MAKES OSTHEER T3 NOT VIABLE IS THE JACKSON!!!!11111

No Guards motor does the same thing. IS2 does the same thing. T3 sucks because MEDIUM TANKS just plain suck. Heavy Mediums are ok like the Panther and the T34/85 but actual Medium tanks anything with 640HPs or less are not cost effective for most players in the current Meta.

U need alot of luck with jackson for it to be effective. Some games its a beast. Others, it has trouble penetrating a vet2 p4 with skirts

Get an SU-85 to vet 2+ the fire rate is insane. plus i can trust it to penetrate heavy armor

I really dont think you have used it.

Damage aside, the su85 can penetrate more

Su-85 is only a beast from vet 2.Jackson is a beast straight up.Atleast thats the feeling i get when i'm up against them.Whenever i face su-85 i know all i need is one partial flank and i can take out even 2 of them.I have to be very careful before considering such a move against 2 jacksons.And i know against su-85 i can run away ,it can't chase and finish me off.Jackson can prevent axis from building up a critical mass of armor because it kills,su-85 deters more than kills and after a certain level unless ur VP win has been achieved axis will not be deterred because panthers/tigers have hit critical mass or KT is out supported by others.

You make 0 sense here. You are defying Physics. It doesnt MATTER the number of shots if the TTK is slower. Unless of course your talking about just causing damage and not killing.

Dont you see how your logic breaks down?

Jackson takes LONGER to kill a tank then an SU85. Yet somehow in your argument since it does more damage per shot its magically going to kill a tank that would otherwise speed away from an SU85?

If you chase with a Jackson you LOSE the Jackson in almost all cases with any support. Its not worth the risk unless your talking about the final blow on a KT or Tiger.

Both TDs are defensive. The Jackson does have any easier time pushing with support if you have the Micro due to its turret and its speed. But if you take Tank A and snare it then the SU85 will kill it faster. Its got a better gun. You just need to overcome its weaknesses.

Its not viable in the meta because of the maps combined with how they overnerfed the SU85 combined with the crappy Tier cost. It has nothing to do with the SU85 quality of Penetration, Range and Damage.

Since we are going into Scenerios let me give you this. Against a Heavy how do you site for the Jackson? Let me tell you! You PAY for it. Either with Fuel or Manpower. Any tank that sites is a potential loss and infantry will get butchered. This is something the SU85 DOESNT have to deal with.

But again why use a slow fat TD when you can do better with high HP Mediums? Why?

Give Easy 8s Mark Vehicle and NO ONE would use the Jackson...And an Easy 8 doesnt even have the HPs of a T34/85....

You seem to think and tow the party line that THE ONLY THING IN THIS GAME THAT MAKES OSTHEER T3 NOT VIABLE IS THE JACKSON!!!!11111

No Guards motor does the same thing. IS2 does the same thing. T3 sucks because MEDIUM TANKS just plain suck. Heavy Mediums are ok like the Panther and the T34/85 but actual Medium tanks anything with 640HPs or less are not cost effective for most players in the current Meta.

Again just relying on paper.How long it takes is not as important as doing maximum dmg in the opening shots(unless vet 2 su-85 in which i agree its a better vehicle due to insane ROF).This is because anyone with half good micro will take 1-3 shots max before backing away or moving outside cone or smoke.Here jackson can deplete health very quickly and can actually finish it off(not vs volks blob ofc,none can do that atm not even medium call-ins) or react to a flank better.

Give easy 8 mark vehicle- where are u going off to?This isn't even abt call-in mediums,whose excellence i have never disputed.When have i ever said jackson is better than easy 8?This is strictly between jackson and su-85 and the scenario is is-2 supported by su-85 vs pershing(which we assume to be similar to is-2/tiger) supported by jackson,don't continously divert the subject.E-8 is probably best medium in the game especially with radio net at vet1.

I don't tag the party line,pz4 is bullied by medium call-ins being saying taht for ages.But fact...first 2 of those shots don't come out of range like in jackson's case for p4 and they don't kill p4 in 3 shots.

The topic is the Jackson. There is no Pershing in the game. There will most likely NEVER be a Pershing in the game.

The topoc os the Jackson needs a slight buff. And it needs it because there is NO PERSHING. If this is to remain true the Jackson needs to have better Penetration. Period. Even at the cost of the allmighty and unique 240 damage a shot that somehow only the USF have in the mighty mighty Jackson.

Your arguments about the power of the SU85 vs the Jackson are just false. If played to its strengths the SU85 simply has better pen and more DPS. Its up to the player to leverage this.

The Jackson has its benefits too. It is easier to use. It doesn't require mines to be effective. It has a turret so its harder to flank. All of this is true. To most players (since people like the path of least resistance) the Jackson is better.

None of that however makes the Jackson magically kill a tank that is sitting in front of it faster then an SU85 could. 240 Damage once Every Minute isnt very impressive is it? The same comparison applies. Unless of course your targets all have 240 HPs or less.

The topic is the Jackson. There is no Pershing in the game. There will most likely NEVER be a Pershing in the game.

The topoc os the Jackson needs a slight buff. And it needs it because there is NO PERSHING. If this is to remain true the Jackson needs to have better Penetration. Period. Even at the cost of the allmighty and unique 240 damage a shot that somehow only the USF have in the mighty mighty Jackson.

Your arguments about the power of the SU85 vs the Jackson are just false. If played to its strengths the SU85 simply has better pen and more DPS. Its up to the player to leverage this.

The Jackson has its benefits too. It is easier to use. It doesn't require mines to be effective. It has a turret so its harder to flank. All of this is true. To most players (since people like the path of least resistance) the Jackson is better.

None of that however makes the Jackson magically kill a tank that is sitting in front of it faster then an SU85 could. 240 Damage once Every Minute isnt very impressive is it? The same comparison applies. Unless of course your targets all have 240 HPs or less.

If that is the topic,i have no problem with jackson having higher pen for lesser dmg.None at all.
I was only against pershing plus jackson scenario while jackson has 240 dmg.

On jackson vs su-85 ,i wil stay with my view that in paper su-85may kill a bit faster but in reality jackson is more lethal,kills more than wounds and more nimble.Because tanks will not sit in front of su-85 to take shot after shot for that DPS to shine(unless vet 2 again which is brute i agree)

Thats why to use the 85 you need mines or AT nades. At which point they have no choice but to sit in front of the SU85 and be destroyed.

No good players use them anymore since there is more going against them then working for the SU85 and its just better to get call ins. But I have used it recently in 1v1 (to get the Kat to shut down Blobs)and leveled an OKW Panther much much faster then I ever have with a Jackson.

Hit a mine and dead Panther.

Jack usually gets chased down and destroyed by OKW Panthers once the Panther hits Vet 1.

The Jackson has far higher damage than a SU85 but slightly less pen. It is a RNGish unit as others have pointed out, but in my experience skilled players will use flanking to good effect and support the Jackson with other thanks.

Really; again, it make a lot more sense to give it better health or armor.

The Jackson has far higher damage PER SHOT than a SU85 but slightly less pen and alot less DPS. It is a RNGish unit as others have pointed out, but in my experience skilled players will use flanking to good effect and support the Jackson with other thanks.

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Fixed

Thats why to use the 85 you need mines or AT nades. At which point they have no choice but to sit in front of the SU85 and be destroyed.

No good players use them anymore since there is more going against them then working for the SU85 and its just better to get call ins. But I have used it recently in 1v1 (to get the Kat to shut down Blobs)and leveled an OKW Panther much much faster then I ever have with a Jackson.

Hit a mine and dead Panther.

Jack usually gets chased down and destroyed by OKW Panthers once the Panther hits Vet 1.

Question,why didn't u bother using the immobilize mine in USF case like u did with soviet.Effect would be better.Since u could kill the panther totally safe.

Question,why didn't u bother using the immobilize mine in USF case like u did with soviet.Effect would be better.Since u could kill the panther totally safe.

Because I like P47. And I hate LT. I prefer Captain myself. Also building the M20 Scout Car is a giant GET SWEEPERS sign.

Call me Crazy but I like ATGs better then the HMG. Best way to destroy OKW trucks early. The Airdropped come too late.

Because I like P47. And I hate LT. I prefer Captain myself. Also building the M20 Scout Car is a giant GET SWEEPERS sign.

Call me Crazy but I like ATGs better then the HMG. Best way to destroy OKW trucks early. The Airdropped come too late.

But i automatically build sweepers whenever playing vs soviets,i think most semi-experienced players does knowing sov float munitions.
When i played USF i used ATG vs OKW and AA truck vs ost.

But i automatically build sweepers whenever playing vs soviets,i think most semi-experienced players does knowing sov float munitions.
When i played USF i used ATG vs OKW and AA truck vs ost.

Sure but think about this. Soviets can afford to be more prolific with mines. They cost half as much thus they can lay twice as many. Also if you lose the M20 which YOU WILL it costs about what an Ober costs just to lay more mines.

If I lose a CE no big deal. I can just build another and go lay a mine in a location where one was already swept. With that many mines a mistake WILL be made. Then to top it off your stuck with the LT building which is pretty worthless against OKW.

I only ever go LT if I am playing against Ost.

The Jackson has far higher damage than a SU85 but slightly less pen. It is a RNGish unit as others have pointed out, but in my experience skilled players will use flanking to good effect and support the Jackson with other thanks.

Really; again, it make a lot more sense to give it better health or armor.

I have to remind you that Jackson does not have that line of sight advantage like SU85.