Cyanara's Wehrmacht Overhaul

But remember, they have an impenetrable NDA on everything, so, you know, you can still speculate that they still could do it but can't say they are.

But then again, the list of things that need addressing has only ever been growing. (Even though it took one person a few hours after opening up the game to modding to make a mod that addressed a vast amount of issues competently.) You'd think they could hash something out in a month.

The FHT was OP in the old vet system where vet gave it more health. It also melted everything so it got that vet fast. Today, the flammenwerfer is anything but good. Tons of stuff has been changed since then, and a 251 halftrack is much harder to keep alive. It should be at least 30 munitions cheaper as you could get 2 lmg42's for that price, in which your 120 muni investment wont burn up in a fireball... as well as whatever option to make it come rationally sooner (BP3 is too late).

Ostheer mp tech prices too much, as well as tinkering around with BP/building price to get T4 slightly faster (but not so it will be the return of days where Ostheer could go straight to T4 and buy a panther and win without much a sweat).
Brummbar needs to be cheaper; i laugh whenever i see that my enemy has fielded one.

Ost sniper needs to be slightly more durable, perhaps panzergrenadiers could be *slightly* more durable.

Stug III G modified to be worthy of the name Stug III G. (I would like USF's Jackson to be slightly tougher... or perhaps have more pen in turn for it to do 160 damage. There is no logic for this as its bad design and renders Ost T3 useless - so a change should keep Ost T3 vehicles from blowing up too fast.

And... perhaps HMG42 buff. I personally have a problem with its slow traverse speed. But whatever is needed shall do.
(Lefh artillery buff of sorts as well)
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I basically agree with most suggestions. Ost vs. USF... joke. And Ost overall seems to be faltering. What has been powerful has been changed, but what has been rendered useless is still useless and causing problems.

Thanks for reminding me about the stug. There is a card for it, and I agree that it rarely gets built for good reason, so I'll add it into the post shortly.

Tiger Ace obviously is an issue as well. I do believe it should probably have an initial fuel cost as a barrier to entry. That said, my preference for heavier tanks having higher CP requirements would be a significant barrier as well. Of course, this thread was mainly about making Wehr/Ost more competitive, so I didn't bother so much with OP stuff yet. Stug E could probably be toned down a bit as well, but currently it's on the few things Wehr/Ost players can count on to save their arses

There currently isn't a card for the sniper. I might create one based on the sentiments here so that people can vote on it.

I'm sure stug E and Tiger ace will be toned down very soon.Forget about any other changes to ostheer.Perhaps even a lmg42nerf,its too powerful u see.

Sniper card is now available for those who wish to vote for it.

I've added several of the suggestions to the main article, and improved some of them based on the arguments made here. Thanks.

I've created a card that groups these issues under Broad Design Issues as a means of highlighting that they are not necessarily separate. You can vote for it here. If you agree with the overall sentiments described here, you may wish to check that one out. It links to the individual components to show how it's all connected.

I've also come to the conclusion that the HMG42 really is the lynchpin behind nearly everything currently wrong with the team in the early game. It's supposed to be part of every build order precisely because it enables all of the other long range units (grens, snipers, mortars) to function. The abundance of Allied counters to them is evidence of this.

If the Wehr player isn't so stressed to constantly micro and upgun every gren they can just to stay in the game, then teching to handle early vehicle rushes probably wouldn't be such an issue either.

The HMG42 is meant to be part of the meta because it makes all other interesting metas possible.

Some really great stuff in OP. I was actually about to do the same thing today. Other things that Wehr needs to be looked at:

Sniper - Although responsive and devastating when at max range, it is extremely hard to use, is hard countered by an entire Soviet tier, and can die to a single CE volley. Needs armor/received accuracy bonuses.

Stug - Not sure what to do with this unit, but I would like to see it become common. It and the Panzer IV should be the most common armored units.

All of T3 is hard countered by American Jackson.

All of T4 is too expensive for cost. Either teching costs need to be adjusted or unit costs need to be adjusted.

Call-ins:
TA is too good against American faction, it ranges with TD's.
Elephant is too slow and is an extremely niche unit. Honestly, I don't really care. I wish this unit had never made it into the game.

Good points. Stug should be desperate man's AT, and there should be more PIVs in the games. Although USF balance is not the main issue of this post, IMO Jackson need penetration buff and price and damage nerf. If the T4 problems is resolved, you can go heavy T3 to counter their heavy Sherman build, or go T4 to deal with jacksons. I think T3 is in a good place right now, specially versus USF, "if you can hold your ground early game".

I've also come to the conclusion that the HMG42 really is the lynchpin behind nearly everything currently wrong with the team in the early game. It's supposed to be part of every build order precisely because it enables all of the other long range units (grens, snipers, mortars) to function. The abundance of Allied counters to them is evidence of this.

If the Wehr player isn't so stressed to constantly micro and upgun every gren they can just to stay in the game, then teching to handle early vehicle rushes probably wouldn't be such an issue either.

The HMG42 is meant to be part of the meta because it makes all other interesting metas possible.

I would even buy a 280 mp mg42 if it was overhauled,right now its useless.I already made 2 threads expressing my continous frustration with this unit.Finally had enough and stopped using it.The situation has degenerated to ridiculous vs usf and is difficult vs conspam.But ofc relic doesn't give a shit about wehrmacht faction,hasn't for a loong time.Just close their eyes and hope all will be alright.Nerfed pak and pzgrens on top of it..good job.

An excellent post from achpawel on ost earlygame problem on ostheer strategies section -


''Grens are disadvataged in many ways:
1. Very bad on the move. Dodging granades, mortars, artillery means actually not fighting/shooting - good players will use it against grens in many ways. Any sort of moving combat and they are completely useless (you can make them "dance" with tanks for example - they stop shooting completely - if you're lucky they won't even fire a shreck/panzerfaust as they can't "find" the position; another example would be running around them with any infantry unit - sometimes it looks as if you were circlestrafing an anti tank gun - often an undecided lmg operator won't fire at all before the opponent stops).
2. Effective long range only. Generally damage output long range is low - even when some unit is relatively good at it - that means it takes forever to inflict damage and it is much better to be effective medium short range. By being fought long range players don't have to be so focused as you have more time to react and retreat the unit that is being shot at. Close range you may lose the whole squad very quickly because you were doing something on the other side of the map.
3. A stationary unit is extremely vulnerable to all sorts of mortars, grenades and artillery. The unit is also very much "predictable" on the map as it has to seek for cover (which again makes it even more susceptible to mortars). Units on the move usually dodge mortars unless you predict where they will be in a moment and attack ground. Of course they are vulnerable when they stop - but this would be the players mistake when he/she knows there is a mortar around. Grenadiers "fighting style" is perfect for mortars operators.
4. Because it's a range unit tactically it will lose in many "soft" ways - for example a capping rifle squad will usually manage to decap the point being under fire (and retreat to heal before losing models) as grens must shoot from further away, that is from outside the capping circle - it could be a game winning factor in tight battles.
5. Another "soft" tactical inferiority of grens is that they are usually unable to finish off a retreating squad - even when it's retreating "through" groups of them. Very often they won't even be able to pick off any models on a relatively weak unit (sappers, rear echolon - which very often means they will be able to finish what they were doing and retreat only then).
7. Because they are four men squads they are much more vulnerable to wipes. Additionally, they are very bad at picking abandoned weapons - very often either you recrew the weapon and loose the squad or leave the weapon abandoned (I don't understand why you can't pick weapons with 2 people for four men squads - especially if there are 3 models on the squad left). Also after picking the weapon they must retreat immediately as one man that is left is completely useless. Picking weapons under fire impossible or you lose the squad - other infantry can do that to finish off a tank, for example.
8. Connected with the above - you must retreat them more often because when they've lost one or two models. Then they become very fragile and their damage is reduced. Because of that their battlefield presence is shorter in comparison to other squad.''