Login

russian armor
COH2.ORG » Forums » Parlor Room » COH2 Central » COH2 Balance » OKW sdkfz 251/17 Flak Halftrack

OKW sdkfz 251/17 Flak Halftrack

PAGES (5)down
New topic New topic     Upload replay New Reply
Australian Magic
6 Jan 2015, 13:53 PM
#41
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 13:42 PMJohnnyB
It's not OP. It's fine, because:

1. It has a setup time, so you can see it comming and have plenty of time to duck/run;
2. It can be easily wrecked by a few PTRS/AT nades shots, not speaking about anything higher than that (like AT gun for instance).
3. It involves a certain quantity of risk because: it's more easy to be destroyed than a Puma or a PZ II and on top of that, it really delays your puma/wurframen, T4, or any other fuel based unit, you name it.

...4... not everything OKW has it's OP, really :D.


1. But you know you can set up on a move? Working as intended :foreveralone:
2. Yes it can, but when flak truck will face Guards and 2 cons squads alone? It's not that easy. Without AT gun it's really hard.
3. It's risky unit, I agree but it's also nail in the coffin. When you have big advantage in early gime you can finish it.
4. It's not OP and I think nobody said that.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
__deleted__
6 Jan 2015, 13:59 PM
#42
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 13:01 PMAustralian Magic


Yes, but why only OKW has exciting units? Flak truck, Stuka zu fuss, Luchs, Sturmtiger, Jadgtiger, King Tiger... All of these are amazing units, very rare, very powerful and they give you a lot of fun when using them. They are different, highly specialized, sometimes OP as garden but the joy is unmeasurable.
On the other hand US Forces have boring Sherman, boring Scott, boring Stuart... Shermans, Shermans all day long.
Where is Pershing? Super Pershing(:drool:), Hellcat, Calliope?

Funny fact: Only 12 game verions of flak truck were made, 18 Sturmtiger, 137 Luchs, wonder about stuka zu fuss.. Can't find... 79 Jadgtiger, 44 Ostwinds. Only one of them is doctrinal (Ostwind is non doc for Ost).
On the other hand we have over 2000 Pershings, 25 Super Pershings and 27 M26E5 Pershing with 102-279mm armor. I guess Calliope and Pershing would provide a lot of fun like OKW units.



320HP. AA truck, T70 and Stuart also have 320 but hey! They don't have smoke.

Well I can understand the allure of big tanks, but Flak truck, Stuka, Luchs etc, exciting units?
Well, different strokes for different folks I guess. I would not mind a Pershing per se, but I dont see how it would not break the already hopeless USF vs OH dynamic... hopeless as in hopeless for OH, that is. A call-in that would enable USF to out-Tiger the Tiger, what could possibly go wrong, not to mention the Pershing saw use in all of 2(?) engagements in the ETO which would not sit too well with your own criteria. Calliope, why not, Hellcat, would be pretty redundant with Wolverine, but why not, still, all of this would be just added flavour and not remedy anything of what is wrong about this game atm.

Edit: Apparently, the Pershing participated in about half a dozen engagements.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
Australian Magic
6 Jan 2015, 14:08 PM
#43
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 13:59 PM__deleted__

Well I can understand the allure of big tanks, but Flak truck, Stuka, Luchs etc, exciting units?
Well, different strokes for different folks I guess. I would not mind a Pershing per se, but I dont see how it would not break the already hopeless USF vs OH dynamic... hopeless as in hopeless for OH, that is. A call-in that would enable USF to out-Tiger the Tiger, what could possibly go wrong, not to mention the Pershing saw use in all of 2(?) engagements in the ETO which would not sit too well with your own criteria. Calliope, why not, Hellcat, would be pretty redundant with Wolverine, but why not, still, all of this would be just added flavour and not remedy anything of what is wrong about this game atm.


Of course they are exciting. Powerful barrage wiping line after line of support weapons, sneak behind and wipe everything with Luchs, Flak truck as well - it's different unit than any other.
2? I belive you meant Super Pershing because in Eurpe there were 310 Pershing and 200 of them were assigned to divisions. It's still more than 1 Sturmtiger.
Wonder how many of those 12 flaks saw battle...
USF vs OST mechanic is broken. Same for USF vs OKW. If you won't win by 20-25min it's gg for you most of the time but this is problem of broken design of units, tiers and factions.

Ostheer vs Soviets was balanced quite good.
USF vs Ostheer needs some small adjustments.
But OKW... This faction is just broken.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
JohnnyB
6 Jan 2015, 14:13 PM
#44
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Broken design, broken faction, broken units, broken broken.... I sometimes wonder why in the world are you still playing this game guys? If you still playing it, you enjoy it as it is, and that's all.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
__deleted__
6 Jan 2015, 14:14 PM
#45
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Well, de gustibus non est disputandum and such. I for one am not too enchanted by either Stuka or Flak truck or Luchs for that matter.

Engagements, as in fights, not units shipped etc.

US vs OKW is overall pretty reasonable actually and no comparison to OH vs US. USF has a lot of lategame nastyness and early squad wiping potential to its name, and if you manage to put the bleed early on OKW he won't be able to recover even if he endures to the lategame.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
JohnnyB
6 Jan 2015, 14:16 PM
#46
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Oh, how i wish to find that nastiness of USF in late game. But it appears that it eludes me.... :D. USF is the biggest MP bleeder I ever saw.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
Australian Magic
6 Jan 2015, 14:18 PM
#47
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 14:14 PM__deleted__
Well, de gustibus non est disputandum and such. I for one am not too enchanted by either Stuka or Flak truck or Luchs for that matter.

Engagements, as in fights, not units shipped etc.

US vs OKW is overall pretty reasonable actually and no comparison to OH vs US. USF has a lot of lategame nastyness and early squad wiping potential to its name, and if you manage to put the bleed early on OKW he won't be able to recover even if he endures to the lategame.


Have you seen Sturmtigerfish vs Luvnest?

Wipes everywhere, 3/4 of the map in hand of USF, Luvnest still won.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
BeltFedWombat
6 Jan 2015, 14:19 PM
#48
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

The one unit that would make USF the One True Faction and break the game completely would be a sniper. Sorry, O/T
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
__deleted__
6 Jan 2015, 14:34 PM
#49
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 14:18 PMAustralian Magic


Have you seen Sturmtigerfish vs Luvnest?

Wipes everywhere, 3/4 of the map in hand of USF, Luvnest still won.

Nope I haven't. But individual games are rarely all that indicative of imbalances; you want a reasonably sized statistical sample, as in the recent tourney, which did not exhibit any tangible superiority of OKW over US (or vice versa)...
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
Alexzandvar
6 Jan 2015, 14:43 PM
#50
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

OKW versus US is fairly balanced, but USF versus Ostheer is absolutely not and grenadiers need something to make them more competitive early game versus the rifle blob.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
BeltFedWombat
6 Jan 2015, 14:48 PM
#51
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

... how about Ostheer Volks with MP40s?

Oh, wait....
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
Alexzandvar
6 Jan 2015, 15:03 PM
#52
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Assault Grens have no armor, they will die to a rifle blob just as fas as regular Grens. What Ostheer needs is either an armor buff to all Grens, or a damage increase making them more able to take down rifleman at range.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
__deleted__
6 Jan 2015, 15:20 PM
#53
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 15:03 PMAlexzandvar
Assault Grens have no armor, they will die to a rifle blob just as fas as regular Grens. What Ostheer needs is either an armor buff to all Grens, or a damage increase making them more able to take down rifleman at range.

Which would be problematic in its own right since Grens would then probably too much to handle for Cons in the early game. We had that before, and it was a bad patch, as it outright made Soviet T0 noncompetitive, spawning the maxpin/clowncar builds we have all come to love. Meh. Quite the conundrum. Just why, oh why, did they abandon target tables? The use of which for balancing purposes should be overwhelmingly obvious? Me no comprendre.

Assgrens? Dont make me laugh. The Stug E can be a bitch, the Assgrens are really tame and present no issue.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
G4bb4_G4nd4lf
6 Jan 2015, 15:23 PM
#54
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 14:08 PMAustralian Magic


in Eurpe there were 310 Pershing and 200 of them were assigned to divisions. It's still more than 1 Sturmtiger.


Wut? There were only 20 pershings that actually saw combat in WW2

18 Sturmtigers were built in total and 7 Sturmtigers were used during the Ardennes Offensive.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
Australian Magic
6 Jan 2015, 15:37 PM
#55
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 15:23 PMG4bb4_G4nd4lf


Wut? There were only 20 pershings that actually saw combat in WW2

18 Sturmtigers were built in total and 7 Sturmtigers were used during the Ardennes Offensive.



I found that only 1 Sturmtiger was ued "which may have been the only time the Sturmtiger was used in its intended role."
About Ardennes, there is a sentence that they served, not fought. That's a difference.

Same about Pershing. 310 in Europe, 200 assigned into divisions but I did not say how many of them acctualy were used in battle.

I have plenty WWII books and only 1 mentions about 1 Sturmtiger that was used. Book for me are better source than internet.
At the end of the war they were used only on the easter front (that is what internet says). If it's true, what the hell this unit is doing in WFA?
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
DasDoomTurtle
6 Jan 2015, 15:41 PM
#56
avatar of DasDoomTurtle

Posts: 438

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 14:08 PMAustralian Magic


Of course they are exciting. Powerful barrage wiping line after line of support weapons, sneak behind and wipe everything with Luchs, Flak truck as well - it's different unit than any other.
2? I belive you meant Super Pershing because in Eurpe there were 310 Pershing and 200 of them were assigned to divisions. It's still more than 1 Sturmtiger.
Wonder how many of those 12 flaks saw battle...
USF vs OST mechanic is broken. Same for USF vs OKW. If you won't win by 20-25min it's gg for you most of the time but this is problem of broken design of units, tiers and factions.

Ostheer vs Soviets was balanced quite good.
USF vs Ostheer needs some small adjustments.
But OKW... This faction is just broken.


Ummmm first off Pershings were rare on the front lines actually fighting. Yet more King Tigers saw combat than Pershings. A king Tiger "company" comprised of 45 King tigers grouped in platoons and if I remember my college studies there were at least 10 "heavy tank companies". (Ik many had mechanical issues but the point still stands). So in essence it doesn't matter the history behind anything in this game because this game has no historical basis. So why call for "historical balance" at all other than to try and advance an agenda that does not reflect any historical confrontations.....

On topic - The flak truck in game (while modeled wrong) still reflects the abilities of the German army at that time because many mobile flack guns were very common whether on the back of opels, static, mounted on many verations of half tracks and old tank chassis. Furthermore, it inst anything op because of the fact that any form of at can kill it easily when the axis player slips up on their micro.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
LemonJuice
6 Jan 2015, 16:24 PM
#57
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

As a game designer you want to think of unit roles first,and then build the unit around the role. You don't want to overlap same units from the existing german faction, so you're probably gonna have to use some of the more obscure unit designs that weren't as massed produced.

Imo usf get pretty cool things too: their aaht is very good, vehicle crews and instacrit repair, bars, m20 mines, fighting position rifle nades, etc etc
http://l3monjuic3.deviantart.com

https://www.instagram.com/shkimart/
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
Katitof
6 Jan 2015, 16:41 PM
#58
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 15:03 PMAlexzandvar
Assault Grens have no armor, they will die to a rifle blob just as fas as regular Grens. What Ostheer needs is either an armor buff to all Grens, or a damage increase making them more able to take down rifleman at range.

They are not meant to take down rifleman at range, they are meant to be slightly disadvantaged at range.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
__deleted__
6 Jan 2015, 17:00 PM
#59
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2015, 16:41 PMKatitof

They are not meant to take down rifleman at range, they are meant to be slightly disadvantaged at range.

Which they are. The question is whether that is a sound design decision. Riflemen superiority regardless of range creates a pretty foolproof win for US in nearly all the early engagements. Follow this up with impact unit, often means a gg within 10 minutes and is partly responsible for the overall significant US advantage vs OH.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
BeltFedWombat
6 Jan 2015, 17:08 PM
#60
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

LeYawn is right, which is why Ostheer infantry needs a buff... but what about Russians?

Yet again the common denominator is... (ta-dah!) OKW. It would be easier to scale back some OKW superiority rather than tweak the rest.

Flak halfie is meant to be an early counter infantry blobbing and light armour interdiction unit, right?

A half track with HMGs and a small muni cost AP shell ability does that. Make it cheap-ish. Think of it as a halfway house between a kubel and a luchs.

Job done.
Reply Reply Multi Quote Reply Reply
PAGES (5)down
New topic New topic     Upload replay New Reply
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
COH2.ORG » Forums » Parlor Room » COH2 Central » COH2 Balance » OKW sdkfz 251/17 Flak Halftrack

Livestreams

Siberian
 Russian Federation 8
Velmarg
 unknown 8
BobisWinning
 United States 3
bioodhound
 unknown 1

Ladders Top 10

UKF
USF
OKW
SOV
OST
1v1
2v2
3v3
4v4
  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

Top Tier Teams
VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
Einhoven Country
Einhoven Country Honor
Honor it
9
 Download
Download
1235
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

876 users are online: 876 guests
0 post in the last 24h
8 posts in the last week
34 posts in the last month
Registered members: 49108
Welcome our newest member, Jolliyastefan
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM