General frustration with US Forces

I've grown sick of playing what was my favorite faction for a few simple reasons. I'd claim they are likely flaws in faction design.

Mandatory choice of best light vehicles in the game or an at gun. To further that point.. you also can't have an mg and an at gun. Airborne gets you around this but then you won't have access to the E8 which is truly the only multi-purpose vehicle on the roster. Both forms of suppression come from the same tier.... grumble. You can not play a team game without an at gun and captain tier is terrible. That locks you out of the best American tier as well as going all three isn't viable.

Rifleman. Rifleman. Rifleman. Rifleman. Great core infantry with opportunity to upgrade. Scale pretty decent too. Problem is that it gets awfully boring, but that isn't uniquely usf. See okw.

Shittiest light tank ever. Since when are light tanks supposed to fight armor? Shouldn't the thing be more ai centric? Also, 320 hp. Dies WAY too fast. Compared to luchs it is entirely worthless. It's a crap gimmick tank.

No reliable indirect fire until m8 hmc. The pack Howie is either great or garbage and is very expensive. I'd pay 480 for a sure thing, but for a risky proposition.... not so much.

But by far the biggest problem is.... you guessed it, penetration. The lowest penetration rates on the army facing the most heavily armored faction. Bazooka pen is not good. At gun pen is not good. Jackson pen is not good late. Jackson is crazy op vs wehr t3 and entirely rng thereafter. Rof is great on 57mm and zooks but so what? Just means more dents on your tanks since they have such high armor ratings. Don't give me the flank crap either or I will remind you of blitz. 57mm with ability popped is passable, at best, until you run into a super heavy. Then, just forget it. Zooks can pen panthers ass, but how often, and for how long, do you see a pV's tailpipes? 80 dmg isn't scary either. The only way to make zooks works is to spam the crap out of them thus crippling AI capabilities.

Now the jackson... man when it pens it's damn near op. The problem is against panthers and up. Anything less than 60% pen isn't reliable imo. The crap armor and hp doesn't help matters. I'd gladly take higher pen for less dmg. Also... two of these are mandatory at all times post mid game. If one dies you're in real trouble. It also has passable pen with vet ability until super heavies. Then you have to shoot rear armor. Ever try to get two Jacksons and a Sherman behind an elefant? Hard to get out with one unit alive if there is any single support unit around, even just a gren for faust. Don't even mention jagdtiger. KT isn't terrible since traverse is so slow. There again, unsupported? Never by anyone with a brain, thus frontal armor engagements only. The only thing that reliably penetrates a super heavy is a p47.

Why is only one doctrine viable? I like to win games too. I like using differing strategies occasionally. I like being able to compete if a game lasts more than 35 minutes.

Thus I've been playing mostly wehrmacht in team games lately, only playing usf in 2v2s. A well rounded army is all I want.....

Looking at this from a 1v1 perspective, making USF light vehicles more durable and cheaper would make USF's early game way too strong since the light vehicles come out so quick and the early game infantry is very good in terms of cost efficiency.

I agree with the general tier structure of the USF being way too limiting. All the AI is in T2 and all the AT options are in T3. After all, bazookas can't really be called an AT option against anything heavier than a scout car. However, T4 is at a pretty good spot generally in terms of unit composition - it has pure AT units, pure AI units and then the sherman that is very good at it's anti-infantry role and a decent AT support with armor piercing rounds. That being said, in my opinion the M8A1 is too effective against infantry because of the cover system.

In conclusion all of this leads to a blob oriented infantry-heavy gameplay with little to no strategy or tactics making the gameplay extremely dull. This goes for the OKW faction as well but that has been discussed a lot already.

2/3 of usf light vehicles are great. M20 and m15 are cost effective and not op. Stuart is just not good at anything. It's not durable or alternatively fast enough to be a good scout. It's not effective against infantry. It's only good for its gimmicks versus armor. So is it a light vehicle counter? Usf has the dangerous lights.... hrmmmm. I only get them if I'm having luchs problems and way off a m4a3. Stun it/engine crit set up for 57mm.

I think the point of the Stuart is to use its abilities to lock down Axis armor while Shermans, Jacksons, and Stuarts whale on them. The shell-shock ability is downright overpowering and there is the "Point Blank Engine Shot" that knocks out an engine with a single shot from behind.

The Stuart needs to be used creatively and not from the front, it also needs to be used in tandem with other tanks, possibly bring more than one.

More than one stuart? I can't believe you meant that.

of course you don't leave it alone. when i go for an engine crit i try to come in from a flank with the stuart while engaging from a different angle with the rest, usually m36/m4a3. Even still it's just a suicide run for an engine crit. sometimes it's worth it to snare something for the m36, most of the time it doesn't work though.

Stuart isn't durable enough to tango with the big boys. It's two shotted by everything except shreks and only three of them(one shotted by elefant or jagd, and hilarious to see). Maybe I'd risk it against something without a turret... when I'm axis I target Stuarts specifically so they can't bust an engine. If it had 400 hp it would be much more viable.

An annoying thing is if you have played Ardennes Assault is that you find the AT gun in T2 which makes sense... but obviously in WFA they decided lets put it in a tier so ppl are forced to tech to it.

The M8A1 needs to be good for all those stupid blobs charging you, because the .50cal hmg can't be bothered to do its god damn job.

USF tier design is really, really bad... It's like OKW had Sdkfz 251/20 Half-track, le.IG 18, SdKfz 251/17 Flak Half-track , Stukain med truck and Puma, Jadgpanzer IV and Pak40 (or buffed Raketen) in rep station.
Pure AI/Pure AT and if you go wront it's gg.

Pack Howitzer is a way overpriced.
Stuart is useless.
Jackon is great but on maps with narrows roads his pathfinding sucks so in fact you can lose Jackson without your fault which is game breaking.
Panther has pathfinding issues as well but because of armor and hp it can survive easily.

I would switch HMG with 57mm.

What's more... Jackson is pure RNG unit. I would love to see 260-240-220 penetration with 160 dmg.

And of course.. pop cap and upkeep with Lt/Cpt/Mjr. How the hell Im supossed to outnumber Germans tanks if I don't have enough pop cap?

In the Beta the .50 cal HMG and the Pack Howitzer were swapped which I rather enjoyed.

I also think the Soviets should swap Penals and the PM-41 mortar.

As they are now both of the allied factions don't have enough "in-tier-dependence™."

Elaboration

I'm frustrated with USF too,because how easy and noobish it is for usf players to troll and roll wehrmacht atm.I'm frustarted with Op rifles bullying my grenadiers,suppressed rifles grenading mg42 or simply smoking away,i'm tired of desperately trying to get to pak while the light vehicle hovers to your doom,i'm also tired of jackson making my t3 obsolete by 3 shotting my pz 4 and 2 shotting stug.And above all i am tired of free american teching units while i have tech for life to get a bunch of shitty units.
If usf endgame gets more buff,its earlygame needs major nerf.

I think the point of the Stuart is to use its abilities to lock down Axis armor while Shermans, Jacksons, and Stuarts whale on them. The shell-shock ability is downright overpowering and there is the "Point Blank Engine Shot" that knocks out an engine with a single shot from behind.

The Stuart needs to be used creatively and not from the front, it also needs to be used in tandem with other tanks, possibly bring more than one.

Back your suggestion with a replay showing how you do your double stuart action.

We're all ears and eyes, waiting for it.

I'm frustrated with USF too,because how easy and noobish it is for usf players to troll and roll wehrmacht atm.I'm frustarted with Op rifles bullying my grenadiers,suppressed rifles grenading mg42 or simply smoking away,i'm tired of desperately trying to get to pak while the light vehicle hovers to your doom,i'm also tired of jackson making my t3 obsolete by 3 shotting my pz 4 and 2 shotting stug.And above all i am tired of free american teching units while i have tech for life to get a bunch of shitty units.
If usf endgame gets more buff,its earlygame needs major nerf.

And Im frustrated how easy it is for OKW players to troll USF players.
What you wrote is not as big problem.
Rifles are more expesinve and Grens with LMG can handle them easily.
Nades are made to counter MG so what's the problem?
And you don't go for T3 vs USF unless you see M10.
I'm also tired of free med and rep station or flak base closing down fuel point.
Belive me, Lt,Cpt and Mjr are also issues for USF players. They are taking mamy pop cap points and the cost upkeep. With them it's impossible to outnumber Axis tanks (Relic said it should be 3 Shermans vs 1 Tiger but with 3 Shermans, Cpt and Major you have much less points than Axis for infatry).

USG late game does not exist most of the time and yes, US Forces are powerful in early game versus Ostheer - that's fact but at the same time OKW overhelm them with truck pushing out of the cover, crushing covers, kubel pinning down and strompios finishing. Struggle with it and by 9min mark there will be Flak Base near OKW player fuel point locking it so whole battle will be at USF player fuel point.

That only shows how bad game is designed.

Back your suggestion with a replay showing how you do your double stuart action.

We're all ears and eyes, waiting for it.

+1

And Im frustrated how easy it is for OKW players to troll USF players.
What you wrote is not as big problem.
Rifles are more expesinve and Grens with LMG can handle them easily.
Nades are made to counter MG so what's the problem?
And you don't go for T3 vs USF unless you see M10.


USG late game does not exist most of the time and yes, US Forces are powerful in early game versus Ostheer - that's fact but at the same time OKW overhelm them with truck pushing out of the cover, crushing covers, kubel pinning down and strompios finishing. Struggle with it and by 9min mark there will be Flak Base near OKW player fuel point locking it so whole battle will be at USF player fuel point.

That only shows how bad game is designed.

Not a big problem,play ostheer vs usf and then talk.
Can handle them easily -lolz.Only with LMG can u even stand up to them,before that u crawl and hide and try not to die.Handle them easily is quite the funniest thing i've heard today.
Problem is suppressed squads crawling into arc right into mg while its firing,luaghing all the way..nading and winning..whats the point of having a mg then?
OOh..what to do..T1 struggle for survival...t2 struggle for survival..t3 eliminated by 1 enemy unit even possibility of appearing..t4 waay too expensive.Stay t2 and try not to die by rifel and light vehicle hordes maybe soon joined by jackson/sherman while parying for tiger?Actually thats what most wehr players do vs usf.

Not a big problem,play ostheer vs usf and then talk.
Can handle them easily -lolz.Only with LMG can u even stand up to them,before that u crawl and hide and try not to die.Handle them easily is quite the funniest thing i've heard today.
Problem is suppressed squads crawling into arc right into mg while its firing,luaghing all the way..nading and winning..whats the point of having a mg then?
OOh..what to do..T1 struggle for survival...t2 struggle for survival..t3 eliminated by 1 enemy unit even possibility of appearing..t4 waay too expensive.Stay t2 and try not to die by rifel and light vehicle hordes maybe soon joined by jackson/sherman while parying for tiger?Actually thats what most wehr players do vs usf.

Because Grens can't get into arc of fire, throw rifle nade and wipe wole crew..
Bunkers are great because they are forcing to take zooks, stuart, AA or captain in fact. They are doing great in 2v2.
Also 1-2 mortars can provide pure MP drain.
You are saying like OST has nothing to do versus USF.
Yes, it's hard but still equal or even easier than USF vs OKW.


And what's Soviets tactic? T1+T2+Call ins. T34s are almost usless vs OKW.

Because Grens can't get into arc of fire, throw rifle nade and wipe wole crew..
Bunkers are great because they are forcing to take zooks, stuart, AA or captain in fact. They are doing great in 2v2.
Also 1-2 mortars can provide pure MP drain.
You are saying like OST has nothing to do versus USF.
Yes, it's hard but still equal or even easier than USF vs OKW.


And what's Soviets tactic? T1+T2+Call ins. T34s are almost usless vs OKW.

There are no mgs to use rifle nade on vs usf.
Mortar early vs usf is even more foolish,u will already be outnumbered by riflews..u build mortar even more outnumbered..totally dependant on mg to hold the line which it can't reliably do in most cases.
OSt loses about 80-90% vs usf.
And no its the most difficult matchup in the gameright now...okw vs usf is much easier.
Ost is the weakest faction atm,and u saw that even in last tourney.
Soviets are what what they always have been.Spammy and cliche but strong.

you know whats cool with the stuart? Having its shell shock get wasted on supporting infantry because it likes to prioritize them first and watching that P4 or Panther 2 shot the stuart.

I don't mean to be rude to Glenn here, but I've seen him play and I can confirm this is a L2P issue on his part. He likes to "YOLO [his] Jacksons" at King Tigers on a regular basis and he told me once, "retreating is for cowards". My winning percentage in allies with him, across 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4, is less than 40% in each category.




Just kidding, Glenn knows what he's talking about. I agree with him, especially about the way the tiers work. At least in the Soviet tier system there's something that can reliably engage enemy armor and kill infantry (except T1 of course, but penals and demo charges can do work against immobilized vehicles).

I wish the Jackson would have the Marder III's ability in vCoH to do 1/3 damage if the round doesn't penetrate. That was always appreciated... perhaps the Jackson's damage should be toned down by 40 or fifty to compensate? Anything in T3 for Ostheer would just be burnt out rather quickly then.

Back your suggestion with a replay showing how you do your double stuart action.

We're all ears and eyes, waiting for it.

Well I'm not sure about double stuarts. But I did use a Stuart and a Captain to almost kill CieZ (Or maybe it was Siberian's) Panther. I lead with a shell-shock, swing around to the rear and follow up with a engine crit shot. Let the Bazookas do the rest.



The reason I say almost* is due to the 2x Volksgren squads with Panzershreks that caught me after the Panther already got one shot off on the Stuart leaving it weak and vulnerable. It was bad positioning and timing on my part, but I was willing to make the sacrifice to kill a Panther.

The game was lost long before then because it was like my second or third game as Americans, but I think Romeo has the replay somewhere.


No need to be rude though the Stuart is a crap tank save for its abilities, but that's its saving grace right there, its abilities are what make it worth while.

Although you are right, I am more concerned about late game USF. If you do not finish the game fast in some kind of shock and awe tactic, you are pretty much done for. I think a small buff for Bazookas would make it possible to deal with medium armor, but Jackson still needs more penetration to deal with late game units.

The only major problem IMO is, as you said, both MG and AA HT are in the same tier. So if you want suppression, have to sacrifice AT and go LT and either rush for Jackson (which any decent OKW player will rush you with a Luchs) or get a couple of Bazookas.

i can see the jackson going one of three directions without becoming OP (cue relic on the 4th that doesn't really work...).

1) reduce damage and increase pen
2) increase pen and increase reload (still RNG dependent and could be frustrating)
3) increase pen and cost

any of those would make it better against heavies without making mediums any more hard countered.